Forums - General Discussion - Why did Jesus Christ sacrifice his self for you?

Lol religion. An organised system for shared delusions.



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EricHiggin said:
JWeinCom said:

Honestly, the positives don't matter, if you believe god is omnipotent.  

If we have a limited person, then we credit them for effort.  We recognize that even with the best of intentions and the most earnest efforts, people can not make things perfect.  If a doctor has 100 cancer patients, treats all 100 to the best of his ability, and but loses 5 patients, we would probably find him worthy of praise.  But suppose there were a doctor who could, completely effortlessly, cure cancer, who had 100 patients, and only cured 95.  He could cure the remaining 5 just as effortlessly, and there is absolutely no reason not to.  What would you think of that doctor?

Obviously, that doctor is a metaphor for god, if you believe the bible.  He can eliminate all suffering that is not the result of free will.  He chooses not to. God could have just as easily created a world without microscopic organisms that can infect and kill us.  He chose instead to create one with it.  He could have just as easily created a world where children don't get cancer.  He instead chose to create a world where they do.  He could have just as easily created a world where the elderly don't lose control of their bowels.  Instead he created a world where they do. 

This isn't really anything new, it's an argument that dates back (allegedly) to Epicurus (slightly modified).  If God is capable of preventing any suffering not caused by exercise of free will, but he chooses not to, then he is malicious and unworthy of worship.  Of course, the far more likely scenario is that there simply is no god and that since the world is not created for the benefit of humans, there is no reason to expect that it would be perfectly suited to us.  

From the human perspective it's hard not to see the logic behind this. Religion itself isn't 100% logic though. That's why faith is used.

I can't help but look at a similar non God scenario. If the amazing doctor who tried to save as many as possible, but lost a couple, had the ability to work more, but chose not to, are they still worthy of praise? I'd have to say no based on this. How could you allow more people to die when you could have possibly saved them by working more? Free will and choice, that's why. Is working more, as long as you're capable and not compromised a bad thing? Is the doctor actually a terrible horrible careless being?

Why doesn't everyone work to their absolute useful limit? Why don't more people step up and do something more beneficial to the human race? Some could, maybe many, yet don't. It's their choice, and nobody forces them to in a free society, because that would be wrong, apparently...Where was God?

I think too many read/hear about GOD and get sucked into the marketing, because it's good. Others see an old fat rich CEO that's just after your money. That's not to say the product isn't still great, but don't believe it's going to completely change your life and free you from negativity entirely.

Faith is not a path we use to get tot he truth in any other area of life.  There is no reason to ignore the methods we use to come to sound conclusions in other areas of life when it comes to religion.  

As for the doctor, he is subject to human limitations.  He has a right to and a need for personal satisfaction outside his work, he has to deal with physical and mental exhaustion, he has responsibilities outside work, etc.  Knowing what we do about humans, it would be unreasonable to expect him to work to his absolute maximum capacity.

God, assuming the typical definition, on the other hand is not subject to any such limitations, and being omnipotent, can cure all of the patients with no ill effects to himself, and can do so with 100% reliability.  

Simply put, if you could snap your finger and eliminate all childhood cancer, would you?  I'm assuming yes.  So, is god incapable of eliminating all childhood cancer, or is he capable of doing so, but chooses not to?  Those are the only possibilities.  

Last edited by JWeinCom - on 24 March 2020

I also feel a bit sad for all those people that live in constant fear of a god and think it's their duty to try to save others from eternal hellfire,that is some form of twisted suffering for religion.



For Christianity to happen? No dig at religion. I think it is a integral part of human evolution.



Hunting Season is done...

Pemalite said:
EricHiggin said:

I get how it works, that's why my point worked. Religion is about using the 'biblical method' let's call it, that points to God and the possibility of eternal life in heaven. Some use those tools, find they work, and venture forth hoping to achieve these things. While some proclaim to have found God while living, nobody completely finds out about life after death until it's too late to document and prove.

The "Biblical method" is based upon the claims found in the Bible and not evidence... The Bible then uses the power of fear and ignorance to conform people to it's indoctrination.

Those who "claim" they have "found God" have absolutely zero repeatable tests to verify their claims, ergo their claims can be discarded with equally as much evidence.

God can actually resolve this debate entirely, right now, permanently, if he existed.

EricHiggin said:

Science still get's things wrong, makes mistakes, creates things that get turned into weapons that could kill us all in a flash. Is that better or worse than before? I'd say it's worth the risks of the negatives that have come with it, not so much different than religion. Progress isn't perfect.

It's actually a good thing that science gets things wrong, makes mistakes. That is the entire point of the scientific method.
It doesn't assert anything as 100% factual, ever. It is capable of changing it's views.

All things we enjoy in the modern era, advanced medicines, communications, efficient transport, even the yields we get from crops... Is all thanks to the scientific method.

The Scientific method has even allowed us to explore the stars.

What has religion done? Flown planes into buildings? Abused children? Attack the LGBTQI community endlessly? Recruited child soldiers?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army

EricHiggin said:

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God is all knowing but also eternal. Does time work the same for God? Is there a beginning, middle, and end? Is it all one big long day for God? If they truly have a plan, if the plan eventually succeeds, does that mean it was all good to them? Could it have been done better? You'd think not if God knows everything.

For God to be "all knowing and eternal", God needs to actually exist... And for the existence to be proven, you need a thing called evidence.

Fact of the matter is there are thousands of Christian denominations... If the Christians cannot even agree on all the rubbish found in the Bible, then why should anyone else take it seriously?

Not to mention all through history there have been thousands of religions/gods... And they all claim the same old bullshit that is found in the Bible, that their God is the only God, that their God is the true God...

I mean, Muslims, Jewish and Christians technically worship the same "god". - The Abrahamic God, how does that make you feel knowing you are painted with the same brush as those religious sects? How do you know that your position is the correct one and theirs the incorrect one?

EricHiggin said:

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Having a life horrible enough to want to end it does not necessarily mean you have mental issues. It's possible they could have mental issues though, but again, you don't know that until after the fact. God doesn't want people offing themselves either though. Seems like you agree with them on that then.

If you want to end your life, you have a mental illness or are suffering from such intense physical pain that Euthanasia is an option, either way, it's brought on by an illness.
I work in multiple rescue agencies, I've seen it all. I am trained in dealing with Mental health.

EricHiggin said:

My evidence would be the Bible. Not worth playing the prove it game, because there's many things science thought it could prove, yet hasn't. Now the scientists would probably say they simply need more time. Well to be fair then, just give the worshipers more time as well.

Would things have definitely worked out better if the P.M. did things differently? You can assume/guess they might have, but nobody can know for certain.

The Bible is the claim, not evidence.

As for things in science not being proven... Well. Until it is proven, those claims can be discarded, same goes for religion, science isn't rigid, it doesn't assert ANYTHING as fact until it has the evidence to support it's theory.

Worshippers have been given 6,000+ years to prove their religion and God exists and have failed to do so, how much time do you want?

Where do we draw the line?

How do you know the flying spaghetti monster isn't real? The tooth fairy even?

Yes the P.M could have done a better job, by not sending thoughts and prayers and actually doing the job he is employed to do... That is support the country by direct means, not touchy-feely feel-good religious propaganda.

Must everything conform to the scientific method? Are other methods allowed? It's not the one, and only, method, is it?

Just because God doesn't do something you want them to or think they should, that mean's they don't exist? Hidden answers don't just appear because you want them to.

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Well is the Bible entirely fact or just a book to get you to potentially believe and follow? Has religion changed over time as well?

I'm not saying the scientific method is useless, it's useful, but can it prove 100% that God can't exist? If it ever does, then odds are many will change their minds.

What has science done? Chemical weapons, nukes, etc? Negatives along with positives?

---

Has science proved God can't exist? Why not?

Do some Christians agree on some things? Do all scientists agree on everything?

Old science that made claims that weren't true is something to point out as an extremely bad thing?

Nobody knows until they find the answer they are content with, like science.

---

What did they used to think and how did they use to treat some of these people? Differently than now? Why?

When it comes to suicide and mental health, the professionals, and you, know everything? Can't be wrong? Even partially?

What about people who decide to end someone else's life? Are they mentally ill? Could they just be sympathetic?

---

If scientific claims were discarded they'd never have proven anything. They must have some faith in their idea's and continue.

Worshipers believe God is eternal, so, a lot, longer.

Good question. Where do we draw it? Can science answer that? Can it disprove the tooth fairy?

I can't help but feel you're a little biased here. Kinda like being given a Werther's Original when you'd much rather have a large glass of water. More water probably would've been a good idea along with the wishes though.



The Canadian National Anthem According To Justin Trudeau

 

Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
Oh planet Earth, ell gee bee queue and tee.

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craighopkins said:
Faith in Jesus Christ can save you from eternal darkness. Its the will of our heavenly Father that who ever believes in his son may have eternal life

You kinda gotta prove a claim like this by designing an experiment that can be reliable recreated in a lab in a controlled environment, verified by at least three external, nonbiased sources. 

Only then will Religion be treated with the respect you think it deserves. 



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ResidentToxy said:
Lol religion. An organised system for shared delusions.

Outdated traditions masquerading as science. 



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Vita, 3DS, Android

Top 6 this generation: 
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EricHiggin said:

...an indescribable amount of nonsense...

After my previous encounters with you, why am I not surprised to see you're skeptical of science and in support of religion? 

What is this, the regressive trifecta here? anti-science, republican, religious. The holy trinity of [redacted]. 

After seeing your posts in the US Politics thread, it's clear you like to debate (A lot, at great expense of your personal time) despite being utterly trash at it. Your points hold no value, your stance has no support, your arguments are fundamentally flawed, and based on everything I've read from you in various other threads, I am 100% certain that no amount of counter-pointing out your leaps in logic and hilariously flawed tactics would make you even consider that you're wrong. You're so far away from truth that arguing with you would make me look bad simply because I refuse to treat your points with respect due to the fact that they're so outlandishly removed from reality that they function as their own parody of themselves and thus arguing with them gives them power and Creedence they don't deserve. 

Honestly, don't even bother responding to me because I'll read your answer once, slowly shake my head, and mentally envision the 10,000 word essay I'd need to write to explain every minute detail of your point and why it's wrong, how it's wrong, when the misconception started, how the falsehood was perpetuated, and whether or not you can be cured of your ignorance. It's actually painful skimming your posts because you consistently miss every point, refuse to use logic or science or rationality in your debate, and hold some pretty nasty opinions. It hurts to see that someone with the intelligence needed to operate a computer is somehow stuck in a time and place when your outdated, archaic views are still upheld, a time long in the past that needs to be relegated to history. 

**Edit so there's no confusion** 

Yes I hate religion. I believe that, at its core, it's a fundamentally broken belief system and that faith is damaging to the human psyche when it's replacing logic and reason. There are people who do good with it, there are those who behave morally and rationally even when under the influence of religion, but too often I see people using 'god' as an excuse to get away with shitty behaviour, faulty beliefs, a disrespect of science, and a backwards outlook on life. It irks me even more knowing that for some reason it's considered not cool or taboo or disrespectful to ream into religion for the sham that it is. Religion is the pyramid scheme of thought processed, the homeopathy of spirituality. It's fake, it's nonsense, and I won't pretend that it deserves any more respect than the scam it is. Religion is a mental disease, one of delusion and a self-removal from reality that should be treated with compassion and diligence in order to fix it, not encouraged by years of tradition and perpetuated on the global scale. 

Good riddance to the whole concept. ESPECIALLY when it is put at odds with science. 

Last edited by Runa216 - on 24 March 2020

I got it all, baby! 

PS4, Switch, WiiU, XBO, PC
Vita, 3DS, Android

Top 6 this generation: 
Bloodborne, Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice, God of War, The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, Dark Souls III, Red Dead Redemption II

JWeinCom said:
EricHiggin said:

From the human perspective it's hard not to see the logic behind this. Religion itself isn't 100% logic though. That's why faith is used.

I can't help but look at a similar non God scenario. If the amazing doctor who tried to save as many as possible, but lost a couple, had the ability to work more, but chose not to, are they still worthy of praise? I'd have to say no based on this. How could you allow more people to die when you could have possibly saved them by working more? Free will and choice, that's why. Is working more, as long as you're capable and not compromised a bad thing? Is the doctor actually a terrible horrible careless being?

Why doesn't everyone work to their absolute useful limit? Why don't more people step up and do something more beneficial to the human race? Some could, maybe many, yet don't. It's their choice, and nobody forces them to in a free society, because that would be wrong, apparently...Where was God?

I think too many read/hear about GOD and get sucked into the marketing, because it's good. Others see an old fat rich CEO that's just after your money. That's not to say the product isn't still great, but don't believe it's going to completely change your life and free you from negativity entirely.

Faith is not a path we use to get tot he truth in any other area of life.  There is no reason to ignore the methods we use to come to sound conclusions in other areas of life when it comes to religion.  

As for the doctor, he is subject to human limitations.  He has a right to and a need for personal satisfaction outside his work, he has to deal with physical and mental exhaustion, he has responsibilities outside work, etc.  Knowing what we do about humans, it would be unreasonable to expect him to work to his absolute maximum capacity.

God, assuming the typical definition, on the other hand is not subject to any such limitations, and being omnipotent, can cure all of the patients with no ill effects to himself, and can do so with 100% reliability.  

Simply put, if you could snap your finger and eliminate all childhood cancer, would you?  I'm assuming yes.  So, is god incapable of eliminating all childhood cancer, or is he capable of doing so, but chooses not to?  Those are the only possibilities.  

Do we always use science? Do we use science at times even without being aware of it? What else might we not be aware of when consciously operating? Can something be said that's not factually correct, yet have deeper meaning beyond the obvious?

Where do the doctors rights come from? Why can't another human remove those rights?

God could also wipe everything out and restart since this universe clearly sucks as per our opinion. They could also reboot us all in the new one where nobody has to even think because it's self automated and perfect. Would that be better?

Every human would make changes, and create entirely unique universes. Which would be perfect and free from negativity? A universe with only positivity? Scientifically that doesn't work. God technically can if everything written and taught is true to the word. Is it though is the question? Some old science eventually get's proven, or get's modified based on new findings. Time is important when it comes to truth.



The Canadian National Anthem According To Justin Trudeau

 

Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
Oh planet Earth, ell gee bee queue and tee.

Runa216 said:
EricHiggin said:

...an indescribable amount of nonsense...

After my previous encounters with you, why am I not surprised to see you're skeptical of science and in support of religion? 

What is this, the regressive trifecta here? anti-science, republican, religious. The holy trinity of [redacted]. 

After seeing your posts in the US Politics thread, it's clear you like to debate (A lot, at great expense of your personal time) despite being utterly trash at it. Your points hold no value, your stance has no support, your arguments are fundamentally flawed, and based on everything I've read from you in various other threads, I am 100% certain that no amount of counter-pointing out your leaps in logic and hilariously flawed tactics would make you even consider that you're wrong. You're so far away from truth that arguing with you would make me look bad simply because I refuse to treat your points with respect due to the fact that they're so outlandishly removed from reality that they function as their own parody of themselves and thus arguing with them gives them power and Creedence they don't deserve. 

Honestly, don't even bother responding to me because I'll read your answer once, slowly shake my head, and mentally envision the 10,000 word essay I'd need to write to explain every minute detail of your point and why it's wrong, how it's wrong, when the misconception started, how the falsehood was perpetuated, and whether or not you can be cured of your ignorance. It's actually painful skimming your posts because you consistently miss every point, refuse to use logic or science or rationality in your debate, and hold some pretty nasty opinions. It hurts to see that someone with the intelligence needed to operate a computer is somehow stuck in a time and place when your outdated, archaic views are still upheld, a time long in the past that needs to be relegated to history. 

**Edit so there's no confusion** 

Yes I hate religion. I believe that, at its core, it's a fundamentally broken belief system and that faith is damaging to the human psyche when it's replacing logic and reason. There are people who do good with it, there are those who behave morally and rationally even when under the influence of religion, but too often I see people using 'god' as an excuse to get away with shitty behaviour, faulty beliefs, a disrespect of science, and a backwards outlook on life. It irks me even more knowing that for some reason it's considered not cool or taboo or disrespectful to ream into religion for the sham that it is. Religion is the pyramid scheme of thought processed, the homeopathy of spirituality. It's fake, it's nonsense, and I won't pretend that it deserves any more respect than the scam it is. Religion is a mental disease, one of delusion and a self-removal from reality that should be treated with compassion and diligence in order to fix it, not encouraged by years of tradition and perpetuated on the global scale. 

Good riddance to the whole concept. ESPECIALLY when it is put at odds with science. 

Talk about jumping to conclusions without enough evidence...

How much of what I've said here lately is of my personal beliefs vs my knowledge of religion in general?

While I remember writing "nonsense", I don't remember using the word "indescribable" along with it. Not sure where exactly that came from, but I could be wrong.



The Canadian National Anthem According To Justin Trudeau

 

Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
Oh planet Earth, ell gee bee queue and tee.