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Forums - Politics Discussion - Sam Harris Drops Patreon - Other Creators Follow

MrWayne said:
SpokenTruth said:

You missed a very important part that covers what you are talking about.  I highlighted it.  Context is crucial and it's something I've talked about several times in this thread.

So we actually agree that the context is key here. Where we seemingly disagree is if a white person can use the N-word at all, I would say yes in certain instances

I agree with you, even when it i see the use of it as insensitive or disrespectfull.



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I think the latter part of this thread highlights an important issue. There is so much focus on a single word without looking too deeply into the context or maybe intention is a better way of putting it. Personally, it's a word I don't use. When I see it used by others, context/intention is key. It's usually pretty easy to see if someone is saying it out of malice with evil intent or for some other reason. I personally think it is a dangerous word to use but it does seem to pop up in music, comedy, etc.

That said, here is the real issue. Get rid of the word completely. Problem solved? No. Racist behavior will continue to exist. Just saying the word doesn't automatically make you racist. Many people who never openly say the word are actually racist.

The biggest problem these days is the lack of discussion. Bad ideas should be ridiculed not forbidden because latter option tends to radicalize. If I could tell Sargon anything, it would be that his use of the words while not racist/bigoted, are distracting and not helpful. Now we are talking about and focusing on the wrong things. I'm far more concerned about people's action than their words. It also gives opposition and easy way to ignore many of the valid arguments he has made before and after by simply shouting "racist".



"There are things which, if done by the few, we should refuse to imitate; yet when the majority have begun to do them, we follow along - just as if anything were more honourable because it is more frequent!"

-Seneca

thismeintiel said:
Errorist76 said:

 

No man...it's not "the left"...One just needs to be a decent human being to oppose racism, no matter what your political stance is.

You can oppose racism without becoming a fascist.

So enforcing your own terms of service is becoming a fascist? Man you really need to keep your definitions in check. That’s not only seriously wrong to state, but also disrespectful against everybody who had to endure true fascism.

Last edited by Errorist76 - on 21 December 2018

SpokenTruth said:
Immersiveunreality said:

But if you only make a word racist for one race because of history and not by direct action then that is racist in itself i do think.

Uh, no.  Because black people using the word has a different meaning, purpose and function.  Again, context is crucial. 

Words take on different meaning depending on who says them.  In England, chips means the same thing as fries to an American yet chips to them mean crisps to the English.  This is imply meant to be an example of context of speaker. Here, it's a geographical divide that denotes context.  For the N-word, it's a racial divide that denotes context.

MrWayne said:

So we actually agree that the context is key here. Where we seemingly disagree is if a white person can use the N-word at all, I would say yes in certain instances

You're almost there.  The race of the user is part of the context.  It takes on a completely different connotation depending on who uses it and how.  See what I wrote above.

That said, of course it can used by white people under a set of given circumstances.  For social research, historical re-enactments, art,....again, context is crucial.  I keep saying that. 

Well see that is our disagreement there,for me this word has a different meaning on how it is said and for you it's about what race uses it in this case and it seems sargon used the N word that much to offend Nazi's, its dumb he used it and he can be called out for that ofcourse but in this context it does not make him racist.

I do not think a skincolour should keep on bearing the sins of the forefathers or the grudges of the forefather's and we do not need to see everyone that likes freedom of speech on these words as bad people because its not because they aprove the freedom that they condone the unrespectfull words used but there are other negatives we can use before directly going  to one of the biggest(racist) that make's the target to be viewed as a monster instead of a flawed person and doing this also makes the public blind to truth.

You will most likely dissagree with alot of my comment here but people that have a different view than you on this mostly are also very much against racism so do not let this thread dishearten you too much.



Immersiveunreality said:
SpokenTruth said:

Uh, no.  Because black people using the word has a different meaning, purpose and function.  Again, context is crucial. 

Words take on different meaning depending on who says them.  In England, chips means the same thing as fries to an American yet chips to them mean crisps to the English.  This is imply meant to be an example of context of speaker. Here, it's a geographical divide that denotes context.  For the N-word, it's a racial divide that denotes context.

You're almost there.  The race of the user is part of the context.  It takes on a completely different connotation depending on who uses it and how.  See what I wrote above.

That said, of course it can used by white people under a set of given circumstances.  For social research, historical re-enactments, art,....again, context is crucial.  I keep saying that. 

Well see that is our disagreement there,for me this word has a different meaning on how it is said and for you it's about what race uses it in this case and it seems sargon used the N word that much to offend Nazi's, its dumb he used it and he can be called out for that ofcourse but in this context it does not make him racist.

I do not think a skincolour should keep on bearing the sins of the forefathers or the grudges of the forefather's and we do not need to see everyone that likes freedom of speech on these words as bad people because its not because they aprove the freedom that they condone the unrespectfull words used but there are other negatives we can use before directly going  to one of the biggest(racist) that make's the target to be viewed as a monster instead of a flawed person and doing this also makes the public blind to truth.

You will most likely dissagree with alot of my comment here but people that have a different view than you on this mostly are also very much against racism so do not let this thread dishearten you too much.

I think this is actually a really good point. First, don't be discouraged because people have different viewpoints or interpretations. I think most people are against racism and other forms of descrimimtation.

The really interesting thing about what Sargon was doing, albeit maybe not in the most constructive way, was to try and show the fallacy of the white nationalist's behavior. Essentially he was saying that they have branded and entire race of people with a word and an associated set of negative characteristics. The behavior that they don't like and have attributed to this group as a whole, they themselves are acting exactly the way they say that groups act. Therefore the word, based on their definition of characteristics, is applicable to them.

This is one of the biggest problems I have with identity politics. Any time you attribute individual characteristics to entire groups of people, it's folly. Judge individuals on individual actions. 



"There are things which, if done by the few, we should refuse to imitate; yet when the majority have begun to do them, we follow along - just as if anything were more honourable because it is more frequent!"

-Seneca

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I think that Sargon was using the word in the context of the characteristics implied e.g. bad behavior, etc. He was essentially saying you are white people that are behaving poorly and doing the same things you say you don't like this other group doing so the name you give to that bad behavior is equally applicable to you. That is actually the only way it makes sense. If you look at that word as just a racial slur that includes everyone of a particular color, then calling the white supremacists that word doesn't make sense. He would just be saying you are white black people.



"There are things which, if done by the few, we should refuse to imitate; yet when the majority have begun to do them, we follow along - just as if anything were more honourable because it is more frequent!"

-Seneca

SpokenTruth said:
Immersiveunreality said:

Well see that is our disagreement there,for me this word has a different meaning on how it is said and for you it's about what race uses it in this case and it seems sargon used the N word that much to offend Nazi's, its dumb he used it and he can be called out for that ofcourse but in this context it does not make him racist.

I see where you are trying to go with this but, again, look at the context he said it with.  I'll copy/paste some of my previous posts to illustrate.

"And it's made worse because he is basically saying white people are superior to black people. He said a white person of poor action/thought is a white N-word. He was calling them white-black people. As though being black is a bad thing to be." 

Does that make it any more clear that his intended use of the word was to compare those awful white people to N-words (meaning black people)?

No no that's not how sargon thinks about that at all but you only use context partly for this cause his intention was to upset those racists with making them feel the same way as the reciever's of their hate to point out that it is offensive.

As much as i do agree that it was a bit senseless and not so much of a smart move,i cannot say this had racists intentions from Sargon .

Really i respect you trying to change how i look upon this but i had my whole life experience to think about it allready and i assure you i did my research and if i did see evil in people so easily i would have succumbed to depression long ago.



Errorist76 said:
thismeintiel said:

You can oppose racism without becoming a fascist.

So enforcing your own terms of service is becoming a fascist? Man you really need to keep your definitions in check. That’s not only seriously wrong to state, but also disrespectful against everybody who had to endure true fascism.

When you are selectively enforcing them, mainly along the lines of ideology, yes.  And those who have endured true fascism will be the first to warn others of the slow creep of fascism.  You don't wake up one day and find yourself in a fascist state.  It starts out slow and acceptable for a large group of people.  Usually taking down the "extremists."  But, they are extremists, so no one defends them.  Then, they slowly work towards the center.  But, those people in between didn't despise those viewed as extremists, or maybe just defended their right to speak, so the ones supporting these bannings say nothing, even liking them being taken out.  Then, they hit the middle.  This is usually when people actually start to get concerned, but may be too afraid of those in charge or the more extreme elements on their side to do anything.  Before you know it, it has spread to all sides of the political spectrum. 

Martin Niemoller's poem, slightly altered, works perfectly. 

First they came for the conspiracy theorists, but I did not speak out, for I wasn't a conspiracy theorist.
Then they came for the Conservatives, but I did not speak out, for I wasn't a Conservative.
Then they came for the Centrists, but I did not speak out, for I wasn't a Centrist.
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak out.

And if you think the future of fascism is just the government, and not the government plus big corporations that are in bed with them, you will never see it coming.



thismeintiel said:
Errorist76 said:

So enforcing your own terms of service is becoming a fascist? Man you really need to keep your definitions in check. That’s not only seriously wrong to state, but also disrespectful against everybody who had to endure true fascism.

When you are selectively enforcing them, mainly along the lines of ideology, yes.  And those who have endured true fascism will be the first to warn others of the slow creep of fascism.  You don't wake up one day and find yourself in a fascist state.  It starts out slow and acceptable for a large group of people.  Usually taking down the "extremists."  But, they are extremists, so no one defends them.  Then, they slowly work towards the center.  But, those people in between didn't despise those viewed as extremists, or maybe just defended their right to speak, so the ones supporting these bannings say nothing, even liking them being taken out.  Then, they hit the middle.  This is usually when people actually start to get concerned, but may be too afraid of those in charge or the more extreme elements on their side to do anything.  Before you know it, it has spread to all sides of the political spectrum. 

Martin Niemoller's poem, slightly altered, works perfectly. 

First they came for the conspiracy theorists, but I did not speak out, for I wasn't a conspiracy theorist.
Then they came for the Conservatives, but I did not speak out, for I wasn't a Conservative.
Then they came for the Centrists, but I did not speak out, for I wasn't a Centrist.
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak out.

And if you think the future of fascism is just the government, and not the government plus big corporations that are in bed with them, you will never see it coming.

You're saying a Democracy can only exist if free speech is 100% guaranteed, once there is a little restriction in free speech every Democracy will inevitably fail. That's not true, we can set stops in between the two extrems. You're trapped in a all or nothing mentality but the reality works different. West Germany banned swastikas and other Nazi symbols. Did Germany became a Dictatorship? No, infect this bann or censorship helped Germany to became a funktioning democracy.

free speech is only one of several civil rights every human has and sometimes the different rights collide with each other and we have to find a compromise. Securing freedom of speech to 100% all the time will inevitably hurt other civil rights.



Errorist76 said:
John2290 said:
After reading into the situation further, it's clear they were on the hunt to bring Sargon of god, down. I gave Patreon the benifet of the doubt once before abd win't again. Just cleared all patrons and shut it down. After Jack Conte reassured me last time in interviews I have to suspect this was not on him and a high level employee under him, whomever it was, it was a company destroying move. Patreon will not survive this as it's too unstable now for creators to rely on. A right screw up and I hate having to pull my funding, at least they get money for december and xmas. Fuck Patreon and hopefully more platforms will see the negative effect of this politically driven shite. I'm so sick of peoples lives being ruined for thinking and saying the 'wrong thing', it feels like we are verging on 1984.

He clearly violated their terms of service by repeatedly using racial slurs and generalisations. The guy is known for supporting alt-right ideas, but that wasn't the reason for his ban. It was open racism on display...whoever supports that only shows his own ideals 

Show me the evidence. You can't make such a ridiculous claim without backing it up with evidence.