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Forums - Politics Discussion - Are women over-represented in video games?

 

Which of these MOST describes your view?

Women are over-represented in video games. 8 10.13%
 
Women have too much of a ... 4 5.06%
 
Both of the above. 7 8.86%
 
None of the above. I will clarify. Honestly. 60 75.95%
 
Total:79
vivster said:
DonFerrari said:

That is prohibited knowledge. We need to believe that for some reason the patriarch made that even pong was a game that was aimed at boys.

Two phallic objects that kick around what can only be assumed a female writer trying to enter the game industry. It's basically the pinnacle of the oppressive nature of the patriarchy.

Makes sense, never tried to look at that way. They not only kick, but they also block their entrance on the industry.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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DonFerrari said:
irstupid said:

When I say push, I don't mean that a school should limit who it accepts to try and fit a quota, but I mean to try and get recruiters to get those that shy away from a field to consider it.

Say IT and Nursing.

Nursing is dominated by females. I know many nurses and they would love more men in the field. Men are able to help them with lifting heavier stuff, patient moving, stuff on high places, ect. But nursing is not seen as a "manly" job.

IT is the same. It now is seen more as a nerdy male job versus it used to be seen as a female job.

Schools/society/ect need to do their best to try and not "label" jobs as for certain people. But I don't see that happening anytime soon. Too much money is made on labeling people into groups.

Scouting should be done for the best independent of where they are or how they look. So that is all the school should do.

That is still not what I'm saying.

By scouting I mean sending say a female tech person to talk to kids in middle school about her job. The fact that she is female will encourage girls to want to pursue that career. She is not actively telling women to be tech people or preventing boys from pursuing the career, but she is motivating females by letting them see someone like them doing that job.

Or if a male nurse came to talk to the students. He does not need to push any agenda, or talk about being a male in the field, or bring up anything related to his gender or race or anything. But like everything, people tend to associate with others like them, so seeing another male being a nurse will make those middle school boys not see the nursing profession as a female only field and they may pursue that field.

It's more of the scouting by leading. If say a male nurse came to talk to 100 students split evently among males and females, by the end of the speech, I would bet that more boys would likely say they may become a nurse than if a female nurse had come and spoke instead.



irstupid said:
DonFerrari said:

Scouting should be done for the best independent of where they are or how they look. So that is all the school should do.

That is still not what I'm saying.

By scouting I mean sending say a female tech person to talk to kids in middle school about her job. The fact that she is female will encourage girls to want to pursue that career. She is not actively telling women to be tech people or preventing boys from pursuing the career, but she is motivating females by letting them see someone like them doing that job.

Or if a male nurse came to talk to the students. He does not need to push any agenda, or talk about being a male in the field, or bring up anything related to his gender or race or anything. But like everything, people tend to associate with others like them, so seeing another male being a nurse will make those middle school boys not see the nursing profession as a female only field and they may pursue that field.

It's more of the scouting by leading. If say a male nurse came to talk to 100 students split evently among males and females, by the end of the speech, I would bet that more boys would likely say they may become a nurse than if a female nurse had come and spoke instead.

I never had a male engineer going to my school to make boys desire the career. And I find it obnoxious that people really change that much on their perception "due to inclusiveness", I have seem more harm on the shoeharned attempts to be more diverse than positive sales increase for the new public that are now represented. I didn't mind playing alien, animal, female, black, etc etc etc nor did I get any extra pleasure playing white male. The sole incentive I could say I had to follow my career was that my father had a good wage as engineer gone administrator, plus wanting the most difficult admission process in the country.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

No, they are maybe over-represented in some games set in historical periods and in societies where in reality women have or had little roles outside their homes, but they are usually under-represented in far more games. Agendas different from just making money (in that case the choice is made to appeal to what is considered the main user target) can be present in both cases, but not necessarily and most probably less than some people fear.

Last edited by Alby_da_Wolf - on 04 September 2018

Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


No, they aren't.

However, putting female (or "minority") into games JUST to check off those boxes and manufacture a sense of "diversity", is creatively bankrupt, and is pandering, dishonest game design. If you're making a game that organically stars a woman, or a non-white human character? And it fits, and makes sense, and they're a cool character that the players will/should care about? Awesome. But sticking them in there JUST to have them in there, is just as lame as it is in ANY entertainment medium.

Things should be in a piece of entertainment because they belong, and fit that specific piece of entertainment. Not merely to fit an agenda or earn brownie points with people who largely don't like, or care, about said entertainment.



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SpokenTruth said: 
KLAMarine said: 

They're certainly over-represented in my game library but that's how I like it.

1. It's not like this occurrence is without consequence. In World at War, you get shot 10 times, you'll likely be dead in the game at that point; sooner than that most likely. Two or three shots and you need to take cover to heal.

2. I recall less weaponry being carried by your character in WaW.

3. I recall the 'sprint' ability being limited in WaW.

4. I recall WaW having fall damage.

5. It's a video game and in a constantly-shifting battlefield, timing is critical. The alternative, minutes of set-up, would be terribly impractical.

6. Only in a WW1, WW2, or other historical setting. Got no problem with boobs running around in Overwatch or Paladins. As a matter of fact, the girls tend to be my favorite characters; I always play as a girl in Splatoon and just about any other game.

1. Three shots, not dead and you can take cover and heal?  Heal?  How realistic.  Our marines should try that.

2. Sure, fewer weapons but don't you just love a medic running around with a flame thrower or an RPG because they've obviously trained for it, right?

3. Good thing it allows you sprint again almost immediately. Nothing says realism like back to back to back dashes of Usain Bolt speed with just 5 second breathers in between. Or the Airborne division with no spring fatigue at all.

4. And you can immediately sprint away.

5. So you accept a lack of realism for expediency? 

6. So women on the military battlefields are unreal to you but health regeneration, privates with colonel command powers, sprint regeneration, unqualified weapon usage, fly/drive any vehicle, and on and on are realistic?

 

And don't even get me started on perks.  You guys talk about maintaining realism and then play for hours to remove as much realism as possible with perks.

I think a distinction between mechanical realism and aesthetic realism needs to be made here.

Mechanical realism gets breathing room since real life tanks are complex. I'm certain that operating a tank involves more than moving a joystick around.

We can't expect players to have read something like this to operate or repair a tank now can we?

 

Also, regenerating health and such is a matter of expedience; the human body can heal of course but it's much faster in a video game. We can't expect a player to have to spend time in a virtual hospital bed after taking a bullet.

Real life is nothing like Call of Duty World at War but it's understandable why the video game would forego these realistic aspects of war: because they're a pain in the ass to put up with.

Aesthetic realism is different: something like putting African soldiers in the Japanese Imperial Army would make no sense nor would it have the excuse of making gameplay expedient. It would simply be historically inaccurate and pull one out of a setting. Just the same, as far as I know, soldiers with prosthetic limbs wouldn't be allowed to fight and very few women actually fought in World War 2.

The setting's aesthetic would be compromised incorporating such things and we all know how reliant people are on their sense of sight.

As a WW2phile, I know for a fact that Soviet women fought for the Red Army and flew missions as well. Would be neat to incorporate these historical facts into a WW2 title but it's undeniable that the front lines of battle in WW2 were largely manned by men in overwhelming numbers.



Jaicee said:

Alright, I feel that I have been more than patient with this phenomenon, but this morning I have finally had enough: Do you really and seriously feel that women are over-represented in this medium? Because practically every time I visit, there's some shithole thread whining and BSing about precisely that still active on the main page. Today the too-many-women shit is about Battlefield 5 (a game I don't really care about). Shortly before that it was about The Last of Us Part II (a game I definitely care about) and Gears of War 5 (don't care). Before that it was about Uncharted: The Lost Legacy (did care), and others before that. And it's easy to see from recent comments on these threads and elsewhere (like on the main page) what the next such thread will probably be about: the upcoming Tomb Raider game (because new Lara is not as sexy as old Lara or something like that). And it will be by the same people who just got through wielding the iconic Tomb Raider franchise as their defense against charges of sexism in the BF5 thread. Anyway, it seems that this is the way most of our members think. I'm just gonna do a poll and see if I'm right in that suspicion -- that this is the majority opinion -- and figure out what my response should be from there.

To elaborate a bit more, if it's not the female avatars in games that are at issue, then it's the role of actual women behind the scenes of game development or some random article in Polygon that supposedly denigrates men or a major film with a female lead or the role of female producer or director in the making thereof (The Last Jedi, Wonder Woman,  etc.) that is the cause of all the world's problems; certainly of seemingly 90% of all controversies that get discussed on this message board. Women, and a few men who sometimes sympathize with them, seem to be at fault for just about all of the world's problems if the pattern of contributions to this message board is to be believed. I mean there are occasional threads that are conversely about complimenting women in a way. But they all have titles like "Staring at "BOOBS" let's men live longer", "Real Life Maid Girls you're attracted?", and "what's your favorite game character as "COSPLAY"? " They're all beauty pageants of sorts and other exercises in sexual objectification, in other words. I don't mean to be mean, but the overall picture that I'm pointing to has some passive-aggressive vibes to it.

I just don't see people creating threads that go in the reverse direction, complaining about the over-representation of men in games or movies or the making thereof or what have you (which frankly would be far more justified objectively) or about the far more common phenomenon of all-male casts of lead characters (as compared with the rare employment of all-female ensemble casts) or what have you. Only when it is girls or women who are presented in those roles does there seem to be a political issue.

I hope that people will vote honestly and not try and sell me this bullshit that it's all about these or those unique factors in individual games/movies/whatever when one can plainly see the above pattern of pre-determined contempt for pretty literally every major work of entertainment that, to one degree or another, fails to adequately marginalize girls and/or women (as applicable) or fails to adequately sexualize them. And also minor ones as well (like Gone Home), often times. I wasn't born yesterday. There is a definite pattern here. I'm just wondering it's in fact the overall majority that hold this position.

Well i try to answer to every topic you are mentioning.

First off the VGC-Community. I have not been on this site for too long but the impression I got from the community is that it's very diverse.
You can find people from every political camp and some people here even have rather extreme points of view (like you), at least from my middle european standpoint. I think the Admins and Members of this site made a good job in creating a place were everyone can share their opinion and have a rather civilised discussion about it. The constant reappearing of these threads is actually prove for this diversity. Women in video games and feminism in general are hot topics, so of course someone will make a thread about it, then there are always a bunch of people who agree with the op and a bunch who disagree, so the discussion starts and people on this site get very passionit so these threads will always pop up again.

This leads us to the next topic. Do I think women are over-represented in video games? Let's specify this a little bit. Are women over-represented in video games compared to the women population in my country/ world wide? No. Are women overrepresented in video games business(aka devs, journalists, etc.) compared to the amount of female non-mobile gamers? I have no data on that but probably no. Are female leads overrepresented in video games compared to the amount of female non-mobile gamers? That could be actually the case but if so it's not a big deal, Why?
1) We are still a long way from the dominance of female protagonists in video games, we are even far from 50% female protagonists.
2) People can identify better with people of the same gender, but that's just a generalization. It's the same as with food, most people woudn't want to eat their favourit food every day, all day. so even if 0 women would play video games there would be still some female protagonists because some guys like to play as women from time to time.

I would love to see more women in gaming, it would be a win situation for everyone. More female gamers means more money spent in the industry and more women working in the industry means a higher diversity in storytelling and gameplay, not to mention that the games made by women are also enjoyable by man. Every developer who seriously tries to bring more girls and women into gaming should be applauded for that. A good example for this is Nintendo with their games released on the DS. What we shouldn't do however is criticising or pressuring devs who don't try.

the freedom of art also applies to video games and art don't have to follow one's personal moral or the moral of the society.

the game as a medium and art form isn't fully grown up yet. It goes through the same phases as literature and cinema before it.
Eventually the same thing will happen to games as to the little boys in their tree house, someday they will come down from the tree house and recognize that playing together with girls is actually more fun. :D

Last edited by MrWayne - on 04 September 2018

KLAMarine said:

I think a distinction between mechanical realism and aesthetic realism needs to be made here.

Absolutely.  All facets of "realism" do not fall under the same header.  The human brain does not work like that.  Arguments that compare underlying mechanics with sensory content, especially sensory content without context, are faulty.  The real key is continuity--even if that continuity is absurdity, that has to be established as a component.



flashfire926 said:

OMG not again....

No. Women are not over-represented in video games. No one said that. Just because a lot of think DICE is fucking pandering to SJW's with how they are handling BF5, doesn't mean we are some sexist monsters.

Now quit it.

edit: it's clear as day, so much so that I refuse to believe that you and others genuinely don't understand, rather than being deliberately obtuse. I think you will find yourself right at home at resetera. No, seriously.

Do you believe that the inclusion of women in Battlefield 5 would be fine if the women were only present in regions where they actually fought? 



pokoko said:
KLAMarine said:

I think a distinction between mechanical realism and aesthetic realism needs to be made here.

Absolutely.  All facets of "realism" do not fall under the same header.  The human brain does not work like that.  Arguments that compare underlying mechanics with sensory content, especially sensory content without context, are faulty.  The real key is continuity--even if that continuity is absurdity, that has to be established as a component.

In short, mechanics define gameplay and visuals define setting. Of course there's some overlap but for a World War 2 video game, the former has more room for maneuver than the latter.