Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Smash Ultimate is not a port... and not a brand new game?

Would you say Smash Ultimate is...

A port 18 14.75%
 
A brand new game 74 60.66%
 
A compilation 23 18.85%
 
Something else 7 5.74%
 
Total:122

it looks like the wii u version with higher contrast



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Hiku said:
outlawauron said:

I know you're fairly hardcore in Smash, so those seem large to you, but comparing them to changes that are done for this type of release in BlazBlue or Guilty Gear. It's almost just an expectations that small things like that tweaked for the new release.

I was going to mention Guilty Gear Xrd to @TruckOSaurus as well. Revelator got throw teching for example, which changed the dynamics of throw mixups drastically. But Revelator is still seen as an expansion, and not a brand new Guilty Gear.

Adding another example, Ultra Street Fighter 4, aside from new characters, stages, move tweeks, etc, also got some new gameplay systems, including delayed getup, and the Red Focus attack, which changed a lot for the pace of the game.
Delayed getup disabled a lot of vortex mixups (50/50 situations that repeat over and over), and here's a gif of Red Focus Attack.



It could not only absorb an infinite number of attacks (unlike regular focus attack that only absorbed one), but it also caused a "crumple" state on the opponent, allowing characters who previously could not combo into their Super attacks, to now do so.

But even though it was sold separately as a new game, they allowed you to upgrade to this version for a lower price if you had the previous version of SF4.
Because this was really just an expansion to Street Fighter 4.

The fundamentals of SFIV didn't change with the changes that's the major difference here players were given new options but the fundamentals of how they played didn't change unlike in Ultimate where the game is played differently to S4. In SFIV adding red focus didn't change how a match up or player would fight it merely was an upgraded version of a mechanic already present in the game it's like a normal special move and an EX special move one does a bit more than the other but doesn't really change how the whole dynamic of the game is played out sure they were options to be respected but on a fundamental level players approach to the game wasn't much different.

In comparison the changes made in Ultimate force an all new style and approach of play for all characters and players this was seen in the invitational especially in the semi finals with Leo vs Zero where the game is strategic and aggressive on all fronts not Melee hyper aggressive as your opponent has options for counter aggression, compare this to S4 which was about neutral control tactics the entire landscape is different  an example of this is how Sonic is conducted in both games. In S4 he's very zonal and defensive in his hit and run in Ultimate he's all over you like Falco in Melee as was seen when Mango faced Leo today.



Wyrdness said:
Hiku said:

I was going to mention Guilty Gear Xrd to @TruckOSaurus as well. Revelator got throw teching for example, which changed the dynamics of throw mixups drastically. But Revelator is still seen as an expansion, and not a brand new Guilty Gear.

Adding another example, Ultra Street Fighter 4, aside from new characters, stages, move tweeks, etc, also got some new gameplay systems, including delayed getup, and the Red Focus attack, which changed a lot for the pace of the game.
Delayed getup disabled a lot of vortex mixups (50/50 situations that repeat over and over), and here's a gif of Red Focus Attack.



It could not only absorb an infinite number of attacks (unlike regular focus attack that only absorbed one), but it also caused a "crumple" state on the opponent, allowing characters who previously could not combo into their Super attacks, to now do so.

But even though it was sold separately as a new game, they allowed you to upgrade to this version for a lower price if you had the previous version of SF4.
Because this was really just an expansion to Street Fighter 4.

The fundamentals of SFIV didn't change with the changes that's the major difference here players were given new options but the fundamentals of how they played didn't change unlike in Ultimate where the game is played differently to S4. In SFIV adding red focus didn't change how a match up or player would fight it merely was an upgraded version of a mechanic already present in the game it's like a normal special move and an EX special move one does a bit more than the other but doesn't really change how the whole dynamic of the game is played out sure they were options to be respected but on a fundamental level players approach to the game wasn't much different.

In comparison the changes made in Ultimate force an all new style and approach of play for all characters and players this was seen in the invitational especially in the semi finals with Leo vs Zero where the game is strategic and aggressive on all fronts not Melee hyper aggressive as your opponent has options for counter aggression, compare this to S4 which was about neutral control tactics the entire landscape is different  an example of this is how Sonic is conducted in both games. In S4 he's very zonal and defensive in his hit and run in Ultimate he's all over you like Falco in Melee as was seen when Mango faced Leo today.

Red Focus was one of the new mechanics that were added, but I'll get to delayed wakeup further below.
I want to address how you said that Red Focus didn't change the match up or the way the game was played because "it's just an upgraded version of an older mechanic."
My main character was Yun. And if you're familiar with SF4 you'll know that he previously had no simple way of comboing into his Ultra attacks. He could do Ultra 1 after Geneijin in the corner, but Geneijin eats up the entire super bar, and it scales horribly. But that's another important factor here. After Ultra released, basically no one used Geneijin any more. It used to be something you saw in every single Yun match, but I think Kazunoko used it once in Capcom Cup and the crowd lost their minds, becaus they hadn't seen it in so long.

Anyway, because saving up bar to use Ganeijin was no longer optimal, I now approached matches very differently. I could spend meter for EX lunge punch more often, to get in on my opponent, and not worry that I lost my comeback trump card, because Red Focus only costs 3 bars, rather than 4. Same thing for EX command grab. This made Yun an even more aggressive character who could use his strong tools more often.
This also made opponents afraid of reacting to a blocked Tetsuzanko when you had 3 bars. Which lead into new mindgames and mixups. Because even though it's negative on block, opponents now hesitated to commit to certain actions afterwards, in fear of you canceling into Red Focus, into Ultra.
While previously you had to slow down and hold back a lot in order be explosive with Yun, you were now encouraged to use his stronger tools more frequently and be more aggressive, while still having easy access to explosive damage.

As for the second mechanic, delayed wakeup, it changed a large portion of the meta for the entire cast, but vortex characters were affected the most. Safe jump setups that previously led into another knockdown or at least left you safe, or in a position that would lead into another mixup could now be risky to do.
Before Ultra, matches often resulted in being a "1 player game" (Not as bad as Marvel 3 though) where one knockdown could lead into your death, because you'd be forced into a situation where you have to guess correctly over and over. And because of option selects, the odds were often worse than 50/50.
Pre-Ultra, it often favored the attacker heavily. Adding this defensive option changed the pacing of the game in that the attackers had less options to force you into an endless guessing game, and you had more options to escape such situations and return the game back to a neutral state.

On top of these things, there were also balance changes to the roster, and that changed some matchups as well.

Last edited by Hiku - on 12 June 2018

Establishing the IP as a platform.

Honestly just seems like an updated port. Not that that is a bad thing.



I don't care.



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Hiku said:

Red Focus was one of the new mechanics that were added, but I'll get to delayed wakeup further below.
I want to address how you said that Red Focus didn't change the match up or the way the game was played because "it's just an upgraded version of an older mechanic."
My main character was Yun. And if you're familiar with SF4 you'll know that he previously had no simple way of comboing into his Ultra attacks. He could do Ultra 1 after Geneijin in the corner, but Geneijin eats up the entire super bar, and it scales horribly. But that's another important factor here. After Ultra released, basically no one used Geneijin any more. It used to be something you saw in every single Yun match, but I think Kazunoko used it once in Capcom Cup and the crowd lost their minds, becaus they hadn't seen it in so long.

Anyway, because saving up bar to use Ganeijin was no longer optimal, I now approached matches very differently. I could spend meter for EX lunge punch much more often, to get in on my opponent, and not worry that I lost my comeback trump card, because Red Focus only costs 2 bars, not 4. Same thing for EX command grab. This made Yun an even more aggressive character who could use more of his strong tools, more often. And as long as you had enough bar to build up to that second bar, you had the comeback factor ready to turn the tide.
While previously you had to slow down and hold back a lot in order be explosive with Yun, you were now encouraged to use his stronger tools more frequently and be more aggressive, while still having easy access to explosive damage.

As for the second mechanic, delayed wakeup, it changed a large portion of the meta for the entire cast, but vortex characters were affected the most. Safe jump setups that previously led into another knockdown or at least left you safe, or in a position that would lead into another mixup could now be risky to do.
Before Ultra, matches often resulted in being a "1 player game" (Not as bad as Marvel 3 though) where one knockdown could lead into your death, because you'd be forced into a situation where you have to guess correctly over and over. And because of option selects, the odds were often worse than 50/50.
Pre-Ultra, it often favored the attacker heavily. Adding this defensive option changed the pacing of the game in that the attackers had less options to force you into an endless guessing game, and you had more options to escape such situations and return the game back to a neutral state.

On top of these things, there were also balance changes to the roster, and that changed some matchups as well.

Your example doesn't really debunk what I said because you've given examples of added options the actual match ups, fundamentals and such themselves never really changed as for one Yun was always an aggressive character in IV he was one of the major problems for players to deal with, my characters were Rose and Makoto the changes never impacted how I played and approached the game with them even though the were more options in games as I still had to approach the game in the same fundamental manner. The changes you're highlighting merely made it so certain moves were encouraged to be used more they or restraint in certain situations was added it didn't change the dna of the game how ever.

The same goes for delayed wake up it was added because SFIV had a flaw in approach that made vortex play strong once it began so it was added as a balance measure because characters with poor wake up/escape options wouldn't auto lose once it started, this how ever was not a fundamental change as people still played and approach the game the same it was a balance fix.

Compare this to what Truck is pointing out in Ultimate, defending diminishes quickly with each use and actions like rolls are now punishable this means fundamentally everyone in Ultimate universally has to come out and attack regardless of the match up, situation and style your example of RF and DW in SFIV doesn't do this for everyone what it does is add options with in the same fundamental ecosystem. The other added changes in Ultimate further change the universal fundamentals in Ultimate like the change to perfect shielding means defence in the game is no longer about avoiding and blocking damage you have to deflect a hit then set yourself up to apply counter aggression to turn the tides otherwise you'll get run over as the match is faster and its easier to die.

Compare this to S4 where someone could roll safely endlessly it meant the attacking player was most at risk which is why Rosalina was so strong in the game as the game was about neutral control and the strong defensive options made it hard to kill a character.



Is NHL 2019 a new game?



I just watched the Direct. I'm on team enhanced port/compilation. Even the title Ultimate implies the final iteration of something that came before. Lots of fighting games get updated editions like this. Hell SFV Arcade Edition plays a lot different than the base game.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1gWECYYOSo

Please Watch/Share this video so it gets shown in Hollywood.

IIts a fighting game.



Wyrdness said:
Hiku said:

Red Focus was one of the new mechanics that were added, but I'll get to delayed wakeup further below.
I want to address how you said that Red Focus didn't change the match up or the way the game was played because "it's just an upgraded version of an older mechanic."
My main character was Yun. And if you're familiar with SF4 you'll know that he previously had no simple way of comboing into his Ultra attacks. He could do Ultra 1 after Geneijin in the corner, but Geneijin eats up the entire super bar, and it scales horribly. But that's another important factor here. After Ultra released, basically no one used Geneijin any more. It used to be something you saw in every single Yun match, but I think Kazunoko used it once in Capcom Cup and the crowd lost their minds, becaus they hadn't seen it in so long.

Anyway, because saving up bar to use Ganeijin was no longer optimal, I now approached matches very differently. I could spend meter for EX lunge punch much more often, to get in on my opponent, and not worry that I lost my comeback trump card, because Red Focus only costs 2 bars, not 4. Same thing for EX command grab. This made Yun an even more aggressive character who could use more of his strong tools, more often. And as long as you had enough bar to build up to that second bar, you had the comeback factor ready to turn the tide.
While previously you had to slow down and hold back a lot in order be explosive with Yun, you were now encouraged to use his stronger tools more frequently and be more aggressive, while still having easy access to explosive damage.

As for the second mechanic, delayed wakeup, it changed a large portion of the meta for the entire cast, but vortex characters were affected the most. Safe jump setups that previously led into another knockdown or at least left you safe, or in a position that would lead into another mixup could now be risky to do.
Before Ultra, matches often resulted in being a "1 player game" (Not as bad as Marvel 3 though) where one knockdown could lead into your death, because you'd be forced into a situation where you have to guess correctly over and over. And because of option selects, the odds were often worse than 50/50.
Pre-Ultra, it often favored the attacker heavily. Adding this defensive option changed the pacing of the game in that the attackers had less options to force you into an endless guessing game, and you had more options to escape such situations and return the game back to a neutral state.

On top of these things, there were also balance changes to the roster, and that changed some matchups as well.

Your example doesn't really debunk what I said because you've given examples of added options the actual match ups, fundamentals and such themselves never really changed as for one Yun was always an aggressive character in IV he was one of the major problems for players to deal with, my characters were Rose and Makoto the changes never impacted how I played and approached the game with them even though the were more options in games as I still had to approach the game in the same fundamental manner. The changes you're highlighting merely made it so certain moves were encouraged to be used more they or restraint in certain situations was added it didn't change the dna of the game how ever.

The same goes for delayed wake up it was added because SFIV had a flaw in approach that made vortex play strong once it began so it was added as a balance measure because characters with poor wake up/escape options wouldn't auto lose once it started, this how ever was not a fundamental change as people still played and approach the game the same it was a balance fix.

Well, you didn't really give any examples in the previous post other than saying "more aggressive", but I chose to go more in depth with examples.
And you're still often using ambiguous terms like fundamentals without explaining and giving examples. You're rarely left wondering what I'm referring to, while I often have to ask what you are referring to. (Except in your third paragraph, which I'll get to.) Though to avoid clutter, I'll refrain from asking about specifics in most cases.

I don't know why you are doubling down on "matchups and fundamentals didn't change" for Yun though.
The balance adjustments alone changed a lot of matchups in the game, and the tier lists changed accordingly. Certain moves viability and usability changed when hitboxes/hurtboxes/invincibility and framedata changed, etc. And the system mechanics changed matchups for Yun.

Pre-USF4, the Yun meta was to use Ultra 1 because Ultra 2 could not be combo'd into from Geneijin properly. In USF4, Ultra 1 and 2 could be comboed into the same way, so Ultra 2 was now preferred for two reasons. It did more damage than Ultra 1, and it goes through fireballs. This, along with Red Focus, changed the matchup against fireball characters to make it a more favorable matchup for Yun than before. Previously even when you were up against a fireball character it was usually not worth picking Ultra 2 for Yun. But now it not only was, but you'd probably want to use it anyway.
And because of Red focus, fireball opponents had to be carefull throwing fireballs at Yun from distances that were previously safe, not only when he had full Ultra meter, but when he had 3 bars as well, because he could Tetsuzanko through fireballs as well into Red focus.
Speaking of which, this also made opponents afraid of reacting to a blocked Tetsuzanko when you had 3 bars. Which lead into new mindgames and mixup situations. Because even though it's negative on block, opponents would have to consider the risk of losing 50%+ of their healthbar when committing to certain actions afterwards, if the Yun canceled it into Red focus.

I also played Rose as my secondary, and that reminds me that there was a third major mechanic that I forgot to mentions. W-Ultra. It was not a mechanic that benefited the whole cast equally, but she was one of the characters who benefited more from that mechanic, because the drawback of having access to both ultras was lower damage. Which wasn't really an issue for her if you were going to use Ultra 2 anyway, because the orbs already did very little damage, and you mainly used them for their utility.
With W-Ultra, you'd have the same utility of her orbs, but you now had an additional anti-air and anti-fireball Ultra option in Ultra 1 as well.
Though Rose already had tools to deal with those things, the more powerful the tool is, the more easily you can discourage your opponent from using certain moves, and condition them to play the way you want.

As for "The changes you're highlighting merely made it so certain moves were encouraged to be used more they or restraint in certain situations was added " while I didn't claim that these systems changed the dna of the game, that's not all that they did. Like in my example above, it also did things like allowed certain moves like Tetsuzanko to be used as viable pressure tools as you could cancel them into red focus. It didn't only affect how often you were encouraged to use Tetsuzanko, but also how you used it and what for. And Yun having constant access to Ultra 2 made the matchup against fireball characters more favorable for Yun than before. Yun was now dangerous against fireball characters from more positions in the field, and more often during a match. Because of that the spaces you want to control changed. So your spacing changed.

Regarding delayed wakeup, it was a response to an oversight in the deign of the game. But it gave every character a new defensive tool to deal with any knockdowns. And that certainly had a noticeable affect on the pace of the game. For some matchups more than others though.
You keep mentioning fundamental change, so are you saying that the criteria for what constitutes as a new mechanic in a 'new game' has to be something that universally affects the way all characters play? That seems to be the case, because in your third paragraph you say;

Compare this to what Truck is pointing out in Ultimate, defending diminishes quickly with each use and actions like rolls are now punishable this means fundamentally everyone in Ultimate universally has to come out and attack regardless of the match up, situation and style your example of RF and DW in SFIV doesn't do this for everyone what it does is add options with in the same fundamental ecosystem. The other added changes in Ultimate further change the universal fundamentals in Ultimate like the change to perfect shielding means defense in the game is no longer about avoiding and blocking damage you have to deflect a hit then set yourself up to apply counter aggression to turn the tides otherwise you'll get run over as the match is faster and its easier to die.

Compare this to S4 where someone could roll safely endlessly it meant the attacking player was most at risk which is why Rosalina was so strong in the game as the game was about neutral control and the strong defensive options made it hard to kill a character.

But you know that USF4 was just one of many many examples, and that these kind of changes you describe that affect the cast universally are common in fighting game updates, or even game updates period.
So are you arguing against USF4 specifically, or are you suggesting that these these kind of system changes don't occur in game updates like USF4?
Not exactly sure what your argument is, so before I list a bunch of universal mechanic changes like that, I'd like you to tell me.

Though I want to point out a few things about the bolded here. You chose to use the term "has to" to describe a playstyle that is "encouraged" by these system changes.
When I mentioned that the system changes in USF4 "encouraged" Yun to play more aggressively (and use his tools more often) you said it's not the same because it only encourages it. And that he was "already an aggressive character."
Even though Marth is encouraged to attack more in Smash Ultimate because of the punishment to excessive use of roll/block, he was already an agressive character to begin with, so in that regard particular regard it doesn't seem different from what I said there about Yun.
What is different however is that the less advisable playstyles are discouraged for different reasons. In Smash it leads being punished, while in Yun's case in USF4 it leads to your opponent being rewarded by not taking as much damage or being as pressured as they should be.
And perhaps more to your point (?) it affects everyone in Smash universally.

Again, I don't know if you're trying to say that this these kind of system changes only occur in new games, or if you're only arguing against USF4 without trying to make any particular point. So you'll have to tell me before I get into other fighting game updates, or game updates for any genre.

Though a quick note while still on the subject of USF4. Aside from what delayed getup was primarily designed to fix, it still affected every character's options on wakeup. Because every character in the game had safe jump setups, that now no longer neccesarily worked. Buit I'm not sure what, if any, argument you are making, and not only what the criterias are, but also why.
So before I talk about system changes in other games, like how throws take away gray life in SFXT after an update, which discouraged and punished defensive play after being on the defensive for too long and building up gray life, encouraging everyone to attack instead, which increased the overall offensive pace of the game, you'll have to clarify what your argument here is, if any.

Last edited by Hiku - on 12 June 2018