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Forums - Politics Discussion - "Incel" terrorism

(I don't know if this is really considered to be a political topic or not, but I'm placing it here to be safe.)

Just about all of you other people here on this message board are guys. Help me out here. I'm trying to understand something I can't relate to.

Of late, we here in North America have seen a raft of what I think can be justifiably labeled terrorist attacks by people who either call themselves "incels" or whom much of the "incel" community associates themselves with. The term is Internet shorthand for "involuntarily celibate". Anyway, the latest one took place in my state in the form of a school shooting that killed 10 people (mostly female). Another notable one took place in the form of a car attack in Toronto, Canada (10 dead: 8 female, 2 male). There has also reportedly been debate in the incel community as to whether the Parkland shooter whose actions provoked that 2-million strong march for gun control should be canonized as one of their own in some way. Anyway, the basic ideology of this particular section of men's rights activists is that sex is a right owed to men by women, and therefore rejection is unacceptable; that we have no right to refuse. No right to an autonomous will of our own.

I assume that most here will not agree with the ideology that I have just described. But I also think that maybe, being male, others here might at least understand this phenomenon better than I do. It's not as if there isn't plenty of loneliness among girls and women too. The symptoms of it are all over the place. Women are more likely to be religious (and more adamantly so at that), more likely to own pets, more likely to be interested in romance-themed media, etc. These, in my mind, are signs that many of us don't feel loved, or at least not adequately so; perhaps not even in a relationship. There are also the stats showing that women actually tend to have sex less often than men and average fewer lifetime partners both. And yet one just doesn't hear about women committing mass shootings or car attacks in protest. We just internalize it. We simply blame ourselves. We don't blame others.

If I can divulge something more about myself, I've not been any too successful either romantically or sexually myself all in all. I understand loneliness. But I also recognize that my loneliness, at the end of the day, is mostly my own fault. I'm not a financially successful person, I don't look great, I'm not very outgoing, I don't communicate well, I have lots of unusual opinions and beliefs, interests that not too many other women share to a similar degree (like video games, for instance), and I'm sure that people could find many other faults too. And yeah, I can also see that there are some external factors I can't control too, like the fact that I'm only interested in other women and find myself financially trapped in a community that's sufficiently repressive that almost no one is out (including me) and that really limits my options at the outset compared to your average straight guy. It's a combination of things, but I recognize mostly me. I could find partners through online avenues, no doubt, were I a more appealing person. Anyway, it's painful. I get it. I know that pain.

I also know the opposite pain though: being forced to have sex with someone against your will. That's what can happen when you consistently refuse the advances of men because you're a lesbian, especially when you don't feel like you can say that you're a lesbian in the community in which you live because it's not necessarily safe to. I don't have a car, so I walk to and from work every day and there's this guy who seems to patrol my route during the more reliable time windows to ask yet again if I need a ride. He doesn't seem like a horrible guy per se, but I don't need one, he is a guy I don't know, and I don't feel comfortable getting in his car. Does that really mean I'll be to blame if he one day responds by mowing me and a bunch of other random people down over it?

I guess what I'm really trying to ask here is: Why do guys so much more readily externalize the blame for rejection?

Last edited by Jaicee - on 24 May 2018

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I would say it has a lot to do with how society views sex for each sex.
A woman doesn't have this expectation to have sex with as many dudes as she can.  A man kind of does.  There's that joke that compares a man who has sex with many women as a "great key", but a woman who has sex with many men is a "crappy lock".

So I would say that men are more likely to internalize their perceived failures.  They get in groups, and start thinking it's not their fault.  It's someone else's.  



I don't know about rejection specifically, but blaming others for one's own failings is definitely very prevalent in both genders. I blame the whole "participation trophy" culture. Kids should be taught to take responsibility and try to improve themselves and not that they'll just be handed rewards for nothing.

The type of people you're talking about (who I'm glad to say I've heard literally nothing about before here in Europe) sound like absolute idiots as well as nutjobs though. So desperate for sex that they'd kill people but not pay for a prostitute? Yeah... idiots.



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Jaicee said:

I assume that most here will not agree with the ideology that I have just described. But I also think that maybe, being male, others here might at least understand this phenomenon better than I do.

I recently talked to someone on this forum who said that the notion of rape in a marriage is ridiculous, and that such an act shouldn't be reported to the authorities because "you can only blame yourself if you married them". He seemingly thought that sex is a commodity owed to your significant other as long as you are married, and it was pretty disturbing to be honest, so perhaps he may sympathize with this mindest in some way. I'll see if he shows up here. Though he started backpedling and rationalizing his statements when multiple people called him out on it.

Anyway, I can't say I understand this mentality of viewing sex as something that is owed to them. At first I thought that no one actually believes that, and that these people simply took their frustration out on their victims in a lethal way. But then I was reminded of some of the 'crazy' things people think, including the comments from the person I mentioned above, and I guess anything is possible with the proper amount of 'brainwashing' or false victimization support groups.
I guess they convince each other as a way of coping with their pain. It's always easier to blame others than yourself. That's the main difference between you and them, I think. They can't accept the factors that they are responsible for, so they want to lash out at the unfair society. They find a target to blame, in this case the women who rejected them, and when this combines with the personality of someone prone to violence, it can end in tragedy.

If you want me to rationalize the thought process, if they're honestly sincere about blaming the women, and it's not just an excuse to kill them knowing they mostly have themselves to blame, then I can't really do that. I can only imagine their thought process becomes warped after brainwashing each other.

Last edited by Hiku - on 24 May 2018

From the OP:

" There are also the stats showing that women actually tend to have sex less often than men and average fewer lifetime partners both."

Unless we are factoring here homosexual men we have the few scenarios;

a) Women are underrepresenting the amount of times they have sex
b) Men are overselling the amount of sex they have
c) A mix of both

There's really no other option. I tend to go with c) on this one tbh.


On the main point though, obviously anyone feeling they are "owed" sex should really get their heads examined. Porn is here for them (and everyone else really), so hopefully they are making good use of this escapism.



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I think much of this is how dramatically society has changed in a hundred years. We use to have fixed defined roles. Woman has the home caretaker and mother, man was the breadwinner and provider. The roles became blurred, flipped, or removed leaving many people ill prepared to adjust. Now, as a woman I am thrilled with this because everything got better for me in general. Have my own life, own money, own job. Compare that to my grandmother who had none of these things.

Despite this radical and rapid change the sphere of courtship has not shifted to accommodate these new norms. Men are still expected to ask women out, I know many women who have never asked a man out. I've been asked out by men hundred times, rarely ever made the first move. Never had a woman ask me out, I always had to initiate. The issue is standards and power dynamics. Before a man could say "I offer stability and security" and that could be enough to look past other traits. Now, women largely already have that so they can ask for physical attractiveness, humor, kindness, similar interests, etc.

As to why men are more violent? It's nature and nurture. Boys are naturally more aggressive, they wrestle while girls talk. Then added to this is in society we mock sensitive men calling them "pansies" or recently "cucks". The main emotion we permit in men is anger. Media directed at men shows power is fulfilled through strength, aggression, and violence. Media for women with conflict tends to revolve around communication and romance.

Solution is hard to say, but I think helping men work through rage while also aiding them in developing other emotions will help give productive voice to their frustration of navigating the post modern world. From what I've read many of these self identified incels deal with a lot of self loathing and lack skills to address that in a non destructive way. The only way they see to regain control is through domination or violence. Obviously we cannot condone such actions, and they should be punished, but ignoring or mocking it isn't helping. Conversations should exist where men feel safe and can come to peaceful and productive conclusions.



Social pressure. While women have the stigma of being sluts if they have too many sexual partners, men have the reverse. Intense peer pressure to be the alpha male. That having a partner at all times is the natural default state and being single is considered a bad thing. If people see a single woman they will assume that she will have her reasons for being single as if she's completely in control over her situation. Single men will be instantly suspected that there must be something wrong with them, which is why they cannot find a mate.

Of course those males do not feel like it is their fault, so since having a mate is the natural state of things and them being not the problem it has to be something external. Of course these men also lack a good amount of self reflection, intelligence and human decency but social stigma is where it all comes from.

If there was no stigma, people, especially males, would feel a lot less awful about being single and look at things a bit more optimistically.

BTW I do not think Incels and terrorism have a causal connection. It's not like their terrorists because they're Incels. It's just similiar circumstances and character traits that made them both Incel and a terrorist.



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setsunatenshi said:
From the OP:

" There are also the stats showing that women actually tend to have sex less often than men and average fewer lifetime partners both."

Unless we are factoring here homosexual men we have the few scenarios;

a) Women are underrepresenting the amount of times they have sex
b) Men are overselling the amount of sex they have
c) A mix of both

There's really no other option. I tend to go with c) on this one tbh.


On the main point though, obviously anyone feeling they are "owed" sex should really get their heads examined. Porn is here for them (and everyone else really), so hopefully they are making good use of this escapism.

d) Men and women (on average) might have differing views of what constitutes as "sex" (does a bj count? etc.)

c)+d) is my assumption.

As for incels, I only heard about them a couple days ago - they are crazy.



Teeqoz said:
setsunatenshi said:
From the OP:

" There are also the stats showing that women actually tend to have sex less often than men and average fewer lifetime partners both."

Unless we are factoring here homosexual men we have the few scenarios;

a) Women are underrepresenting the amount of times they have sex
b) Men are overselling the amount of sex they have
c) A mix of both

There's really no other option. I tend to go with c) on this one tbh.


On the main point though, obviously anyone feeling they are "owed" sex should really get their heads examined. Porn is here for them (and everyone else really), so hopefully they are making good use of this escapism.

d) Men and women (on average) might have differing views of what constitutes as "sex" (does a bj count? etc.)

c)+d) is my assumption.

As for incels, I only heard about them a couple days ago - they are crazy.

lol

I flag this d) option as part of a) b)

and yes, a bj counts :D (anal does too before some fundamentalist asks) 



Nymeria said:
I've been asked out by men hundred times, rarely ever made the first move. 

Is this true or simply an exaggeration? Does it ever get annoying?



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