Forums - Sony Discussion - PS5's rumored specs are... ridiculous

Lafiel said:
KBG29 said:

https://www.tweaktown.com/news/57845/playstation-5-feature-full-discrete-gpu-apu/index.html 

This is just one link. The rumor lit up a lot of the message boards I go to around E3 last year. I'm not saying they should do this, but it is the only way I can see them getting next gen worthy CPU+GPU combo by next year. I think if they want to stick to APU's, then PS4 Premium should come on 7nm in 2019, and PS5 should wait until 7nm+ in 2021.

I doubt they will go full on "discrete chips" like in PS3, but I expect them to use several CPU/GPU modules on a single package/under a single heatspreader, like AMD does with their EPYC line up of server CPUs. Rumors have been going strong for years that Navi will not be  a "single big chip" design, but a modular approach with several smaller modules connected by "infinite fabric" (ultra high bandwith connection), that "act" like a single chip. This has the advantage that the smaller modules reach far higher yields than big chips, so this design should be cheaper to manufacture if the "infinite fabric" itself isn't too costly.

I could see a 2019 PS5 using 2 Zen CPU modules with 4cores+HT each and maybe 4 Navi modules with 18CUs (=1152 shaders) @ 1100MHz each for 10TF FP32 theoretical performance.

Infinite Fabric may very well play a part in the PS5. There are so many technologies they can use, and that is what makes the next gen so exciting.

But, Man Alive, a 10TF GPU. I am hoping the baseline PS5 is closer to 20TF. PS5 should be a generational leap over PS4, not just a PS4 revision. 



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KBG29 said:
Lafiel said:

I


Infinite Fabric may very well play a part in the PS5. There are so many technologies they can use, and that is what makes the next gen so exciting.

But, Man Alive, a 10TF GPU. I am hoping the baseline PS5 is closer to 20TF. PS5 should be a generational leap over PS4, not just a PS4 revision.

You're never going to get a gpu that powerful in the ps5, the best pc GPUs currently available are under 10tf. If it launches this year you'd be lucky to get 8tf. Even in 2020 itll probably be 10-12tf.

You can't expect the same proportional increase of 8-9x the flops, just as you can't with Ram. Ps5 isn't going to have 128gb of ram even if that would be consistent with previous generational leaps.



LTD: PS4 - 125m, Switch - 110m, XBO - 51m

2020: PS4 - 9m, Switch - 22.5m, XBO - 2.5m, PS5 - 4.5m, XBX - 2.8m

KBG29 said:
Lafiel said:

I doubt they will go full on "discrete chips" like in PS3, but I expect them to use several CPU/GPU modules on a single package/under a single heatspreader, like AMD does with their EPYC line up of server CPUs. Rumors have been going strong for years that Navi will not be  a "single big chip" design, but a modular approach with several smaller modules connected by "infinite fabric" (ultra high bandwith connection), that "act" like a single chip. This has the advantage that the smaller modules reach far higher yields than big chips, so this design should be cheaper to manufacture if the "infinite fabric" itself isn't too costly.

I could see a 2019 PS5 using 2 Zen CPU modules with 4cores+HT each and maybe 4 Navi modules with 18CUs (=1152 shaders) @ 1100MHz each for 10TF FP32 theoretical performance.

Infinite Fabric may very well play a part in the PS5. There are so many technologies they can use, and that is what makes the next gen so exciting.

But, Man Alive, a 10TF GPU. I am hoping the baseline PS5 is closer to 20TF. PS5 should be a generational leap over PS4, not just a PS4 revision. 

looking at Horizon or God of War it's imo pretty amazing what is possible with just 1.8 TF and that's paired with a low performance CPU

I think 10TF can be legit mind blowing, even if they need to employ checkerboarding for 4K/60



Dark_Feanor said:

So, our friends from Semaccurate wanted to get back into the spotlight. And are using unsupported claims they were the first to leak XOne and Switch specs.

https://semiaccurate.com/2018/04/03/semiacccurate-gets-playstation-5next-details/

The PS5 might exists and might be launch this Hollyday season. However, there is zero chance of it´s supporting a Navi GPU and may be close to zero to use Zen CPU cores.

First, there has never been a console with a Radeon GPU architecture that was the top tear of the year. And we even have to suppose those Navi cards are coming this year. 

Second, there is no new mass market node production below 14nm that PS4-Pro and XoX use. The Scorpio chip is the biggest one could get at a $500 machine. And Zen cores are far bigger than Jaguar, supposing Navi CU are also bigger than Polaris and we simply don´t have enough "size budget" to create the SoC.

Third, even if the PS5 GPU is bigger, how the hell will it leverage bandwidth speed? GDDR5X?  That would be a minuscule increase for an extra price. And the PS5 will need to have at least 12GB to reach full 4K most of the time. That is more $$$ over more $$$.

Conclusion.

There is no reason Sony would bet on new architecture at this point of the generation. If they feel the need to leapfrog the XoX, Sony can easily do that with more polished and overclocked Polaris+Jaguar pairs and 12GB of GDDR5. And may be they could get it at no more than $450.

Thoughts? 

Semiaccurate has never said how fast things will be (afaik), thats always others that are speculating.
Semiaccurate basically said something like 8 custum Zen cores + Navi GPU architecture where confirmed by them.

"There is no reason Sony would bet on new architecture at this point of the generation."

I dont know what to say..... why wouldnt you make use of better technology?
If AMD keeps makeing new CPU & GPUs, and they get better (stronger & more effecient), why would you not want to use that?

Also I doubt even with 8 Zen cores + Navi GPU that it ll be more than 450$.

 

"Third, even if the PS5 GPU is bigger, how the hell will it leverage bandwidth speed? GDDR5X?  That would be a minuscule increase for an extra price"

You know that GDDR5X allow potentially double the data moved at same time, as GDDR5 right?
Right now they dont run at same clock speeds, but this allows them to overall still be much faster.

Nvidia 1080's use this and have Memory Bandwidth of 480+ GB/s.

GDDR5X or GDDR6 should be more than plenty for a home console.

Last edited by JRPGfan - on 05 April 2018

Otter said:
2018 was just speculation from the author but we always hear about devkits like 16months in advance

^ people forget this.

Games take time to make, so even games in the pipework would need some time to get optimisations in, so they could be ready for a PS5 launch.
This means that you need devkits out like a year (or more) in a advanced (if you want 2nd/3rd party to jump onboard day1 with new games).

Semiaccurate noted that ALOT of devkits for the PS5 are out in the wild.
That doesnt have to mean it launches in 2018, but it makes a strong case for a 2019 launch date (imo).



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KBG29 said:
Lafiel said:

I doubt they will go full on "discrete chips" like in PS3, but I expect them to use several CPU/GPU modules on a single package/under a single heatspreader, like AMD does with their EPYC line up of server CPUs. Rumors have been going strong for years that Navi will not be  a "single big chip" design, but a modular approach with several smaller modules connected by "infinite fabric" (ultra high bandwith connection), that "act" like a single chip. This has the advantage that the smaller modules reach far higher yields than big chips, so this design should be cheaper to manufacture if the "infinite fabric" itself isn't too costly.

I could see a 2019 PS5 using 2 Zen CPU modules with 4cores+HT each and maybe 4 Navi modules with 18CUs (=1152 shaders) @ 1100MHz each for 10TF FP32 theoretical performance.

Infinite Fabric may very well play a part in the PS5. There are so many technologies they can use, and that is what makes the next gen so exciting.

But, Man Alive, a 10TF GPU. I am hoping the baseline PS5 is closer to 20TF. PS5 should be a generational leap over PS4, not just a PS4 revision. 

1,6ghz Jaguar -> 3ghz Zen core = ~4x speed up? in terms of cpu.
1.84 Tflops (sea islands) -> ~12 Tflops (Navi) = x6-7 speed up? in terms of gpu.
GDDR5 -> GDDR5x or GDDR6.

That would be a big enough jump imo (ps4 -> ps5).
4k wouldnt be a issue.

Also I seriously double this launches before Holidays 2019.



Dark_Feanor said:
AlfredoTurkey said:
Sony can choose to take a hit on hardware if they want so, anything is possible.

Yes, but for what reason?

Microsoft can take an even bigger hit. There is no reason for them to change all parts of the SoC to a new generation of unproven technologies.

PS: Even though Jaguar has been a punching bag this generation, no one can deny it is a very proven and reliable  mobile CPU.

Wasn't microsoft wealthiness something you said would grant them the leading this gen?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Dark_Feanor said:
KBG29 said:
I don't believe it will comes this year, but there is nothing about this that is as dramatic as your claiming. 7nm consumer products are coming this year. Navi being desined for 7nm. The X360 had one of the most advanced AMD GPUs when it released. There is nothing saying Sony will use an APU in the PS5, in fact it has been rumored for a long time that the CPU and GPU might be seperate chips.

Sony could definitely launch a PS5 with Ryzen and Navi chips this year. The CPU and GPU tech will be ready, but I don't think the production scale will be there.

Again, I don't see the point in a new generation with the available CPU, GPU, Memory, and Storge that could be built into a $500 box this year or next, and I hope this is wrong, but it is totally possible.

Sorry for my French, but Who The F&$& has been talking about using separated CPU and GPU?

That is the most stupid idea ever. If a big APU is expensive, it is still far cheaper than discreet components. The simple fact that you have to wire and encapsulate two different types of chips would add extra costs, without considering how to place them on the motherboard and m race memory banks.

The whole point of having a console insted of a PC is the extra power you can get at a lower price, smaller size and more efficient overall design.

Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo will aways use proven technologies and architectures. 

I won't rule out Sony launching a PS Pro 2 this year and it can even be a beast that would smash the Xbox One X, but if they do, it will be using old tech like Polaris and Scavator. 

Besides PS4 which console from Sony used proven technologies and architectures? PS3 had at least Cell as unproven and even Bluray drive, PS2 and PS1 were internally developed architetures.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

JRPGfan said:

Semiaccurate has never said how fast things will be (afaik), thats always others that are speculating.
Semiaccurate basically said something like 8 custum Zen cores + Navi GPU architecture where confirmed by them.

[1]"There is no reason Sony would bet on new architecture at this point of the generation."

I dont know what to say..... why wouldnt you make use of better technology?
If AMD keeps makeing new CPU & GPUs, and they get better (stronger & more effecient), why would you not want to use that?

Also I doubt even with 8 Zen cores + Navi GPU that it ll be more than 450$.

 

"Third, even if the PS5 GPU is bigger, how the hell will it leverage bandwidth speed? GDDR5X?  That would be a minuscule increase for an extra price"

[2]You know that GDDR5X allow potentially double the data moved at same time, as GDDR5 right?
Right now they dont run at same clock speeds, but this allows them to overall still be much faster.

Nvidia 1080's use this and have Memory Bandwidth of 480+ GB/s.

GDDR5X or GDDR6 should be more than plenty for a home console.

[1]: Have you heard about the CELL BE, SPC unities and Blu Ray, or the 3RLOD?

I´m not saying Sony wouldn´t bet on better/newer technologies. I was saying that the big 3 won´t gamble on unproven technologies. They won´t use the most recent micro-architecture nor the smallest transistors.

[2]: GDDR5X is a stop gap until GDDR6 and it has been used in only top-tier graphics cards, it has nowhere near the 2x performance of GDDR5. It does not have the mass production volume of GDDR5 and might never have, it could still be expensive for years until it is phased out.

Also, the Xbox One X has proven it is possible to achieve 4K with buffed up GDDR5. 

As I said, Sony could have a killing machine this year at $500 or $450, without going for new architectures. 



DonFerrari said:

Besides PS4 which console from Sony used proven technologies and architectures? PS3 had at least Cell as unproven and even Bluray drive, PS2 and PS1 were internally developed architetures.

What kind of counter-argument is that?

The PS3 was a technological nightmare. It fails in ALL its performance goals and almost tank Sony - that at the time was in a far better financial situation that they are now. 

Do you think Sony would risk burning billions of dollars in a gamble that would give them no extra advantages?

Besides the consoles being almost 25 and 20 years of age, both PS1 and PS2 were full of third party parts and old technologies. The only real novelty of the PS2 was the DVD drive.

Take a look at this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion_Engine

https://www.linux-mips.org/wiki/R5900

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R5000

The base of the PS2 CPU, launched in 2000 was a MIPS processor launched in 1996 that was used in arcade cabinets.

[Insert "I rest my case" meme here]