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Forums - Politics Discussion - Why is there no thread about Spain reverting to fascism?

Wright on 03 October 2017
Goodnightmoon said:

That said, now there's nothing more to do, the PP are fucking incompetent and acted like fascists, so now catalonia will hate Spain forever, now the only solution is to make a real legal referendum and let them go.

I'm fairly sure that if a proper referendum were to take place, that jumped over that massive abstention (over 60%), "No" would still win, even after these unfortunate events. Just like I think that if a referendum about the Monarchy were to be presented, "Yes" would win despite what the vocal republicans might indicate.



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Nymeria on 03 October 2017
Moac said:
I do support an Independent Catalonia but I also understand the desire of Spain to keep a very profitable part of the country.
How would France react if a Brittany declared that they want to secede?
From the Spanish point of view, Catalonia has never really been Independent and has been part of Spain for longer than the USA has existed. Would the USA allow Texas to secede or California?

I am a Croatian and I understand the desire of a people to want to be lords of their own house. However, unlike in the case of Yugoslavia, Spain is actually a country with a large majority considering themselves Spanish. Yugoslavia was never really a unified country but rather a collection of different people and religions that were forced to share a house.

I don´t consider what Spain is doing Fascist but rather an attempt to maintain national unity, no other sovereign nation would act differently.

No. No state can secede from the union.  Bunch tried it once, massive Civil War broke out.  We have sent mixed signals to other countries in regards to this issue though.



Goodnightmoon on 03 October 2017
Wright said:
Goodnightmoon said:

That said, now there's nothing more to do, the PP are fucking incompetent and acted like fascists, so now catalonia will hate Spain forever, now the only solution is to make a real legal referendum and let them go.

I'm fairly sure that if a proper referendum were to take place, that jumped over that massive abstention (over 60%), "No" would still win, even after these unfortunate events. Just like I think that if a referendum about the Monarchy were to be presented, "Yes" would win despite what the vocal republicans might indicate.

I strongly belive October 1st 2017 is the date when Spain lost Catalonia forever, they are never going to forget this, only brilliant politicians could solve this and we don't have any of that in Spain, Catalan people feel now less Spanish than ever all thanks to the fucking PP, Catalonian indepence is now just a matter of time.



Zkuq on 03 October 2017

Perhaps I'm remembering things incorrectly, but I think the voting was deemed illegal by a court. In that sense, the police using force to stop it is OK. Whether doing so was a good idea or in the spirit of democracy might be an issue, but strictly speaking (and assuming correct court judgement), everything seems to have went according to the law.

I don't think the situation was handled in an acceptable manner, but there don't seem to be any really serious issues.



palou on 03 October 2017
Ka-pi96 said:
numberwang said:
Fascism is the wrong term here, it is centralism or the concentration of power away from many local governments into one central government, which is the EU.

First thing that comes up when googling fascism "Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and control of industry and commerce, that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe."

What the Spanish government did in Catalonia could definitely be described as radical authoritarian nationalism. Spain may not be a dictatorship but there was definitely forcible suppression of opposition. And considering that Catalonia is supposed to be one of their wealthier regions and there was no doubt a desire to keep Catalan industry and commerce "spanish" there is an (albeit weak) argument for control of industry and commerce too.

So perhaps not fully fascism, but certainly closer to it than any country that claims to be democratic should be!

A fundemental part of democracy is that we do not circumvent the democraticly elected instituitions that we are part of. If the institutions decide that you aren't allowed to make fireworks during the dry months, you respect that, even if you dislike it - and voice your opinion in the next elections. If they tell you that there is to be no independance referendum, you respect that, and voice your opinion in the next legitimate elections. Vote for a candidate that supports the referendum to be held. 



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palou on 03 October 2017
Ka-pi96 said:
Wright said:

I generally prefer maintaining myself away from political threads in VGChartz, but I guess I'd like to give my two cents on this one.

I wouldn't call "Spain reverting to fascism" when Catalonia has basically vulnerated the Constitution they supposedly have adhered to all these years, have been repeatedly told that they can't do what they want to, to the point that the Constitutional Court sanctioned their actions (and they completely and utterly disregarded any of this), and the Govern is as corrupt as they get (as corrupt as Madrid's, basically) and partially uses the idea of Independence as a smokescreen to hide their own faults, not to mention they have absolutely zero plans mid/long-term (that I know of) if they manage to get the independence (let alone the fact that the European Union has also mentioned they won't support whatever Catalonia is up to, because it's illegal).

Now, it's unfortunate how incompetent our current political party choose to handle the situation. If you wanted to title the thread "Spain reverting to idiocity", then I'd be fine with that one, really, because these last years we've got nothing but fuck-ups after fuck-ups. What transpired the other day was definitively a massive mess that gave more legitimacy in everyone's eyes the Catalonia's cause. I'm no supporter of their independency, but I do support the fact that they should make a referendum if they so chose to - of course, through legal means. I wouldn't object to any of it, if everything was done like it's supposedly how it has to be done. If the vast majority would win through an established referendum, I'd accept the result entirely. What you can't tell me is that this illegal thing means anything when people could basically vote in one school, then go to a different one and keep voting. This is a mess that only benefits those who wants Yes and invalidates any kind of meaningful data we could extract from it.

There's plenty of things that Catalonia could discuss; a Constitutional reform/change/improvement, talks about turning Spain into Federalism...I dunno, there's plenty of actions they could take, but they're extremely obsessed with their Independent dream that they choose to disregard basically any sensible action they could progressively take here. I have sympathies for those who were injuried during the illegal voting the other day, but I have zero sympathy for what the Govern has been doing all along.

Now, I'd like to give numbers without any opinion attached to it. 2,200,000 people voted "Yes" to Independence in Catalonia through the illegal referendum (A bit less than the last time they pulled this out, though then again they didn't have the police issue back then). As far as I know, Catalonia has 7,000,000 people living there, based on the last census . It means from the total Catalonia population (that's including children - which by the way, I'm fairly sure they were allowed to vote in the illegal referendum, but don't quote me here), 31% of people do want Independence.

heh, I got Wight to post. Haven't seen you in awhile actually!

You keep saying the referendum was illegal though, but in what basis? I was under the impression that it was passed through the Catalan parliament. I know the national government declared it illegal (most likely as an attempt to prevent it) but dthid they have any actual basis for that. Not as if I'd agree with it even if they did though.

Of course there's a flip side to Catalonia being able to discuss other things such as reform or federalisation etc, the Spanish government could be discussing those things with Catalonia too. But if independence is what the Catalan people really want I think they have right to pursue that rather than settling for something lesser. And I've no doubt there's a lot more of them that really want independence now than there was before.

The catalan court has no authority on the issue. My mayor could tell me that I'm allowed to carry rocket launchers in the street, from now on. That would not matter, because it is not in his authority to do so.



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Wright on 03 October 2017
Ka-pi96 said:

heh, I got Wight to post. Haven't seen you in awhile actually!

You keep saying the referendum was illegal though, but in what basis? I was under the impression that it was passed through the Catalan parliament. I know the national government declared it illegal (most likely as an attempt to prevent it) but did they have any actual basis for that. Not as if I'd agree with it even if they did though.

I just said the Govern was sanctioned by the Constitutional Tribunal, and there's also the fact that you can't make a referendum that directly contradicts the basics of the Constitution without previous pact with the centralized goverment (a Constitutional reform, in this case), which they totally jumped over.

Regions can pass their own laws as long as they respect the Constitution, as stated in the Constitution itself. A referendum that claims the sovereign and total independence of a region, when the Constitution itself states that this isn't possible, does not respect the Constitution. Therefore, it's illegal.

This is not the first illegal referendum Catalonia has done. After the first one, they were heavily critizised, sanctioned (and they ignored this last part entirely) and were demanded not to do this again without first making an established agreement with the goverment and rest of the political parties (bear in mind, some of these political parties do support Catalonia). European Union didn't agree to Catalonia's actions, either. Yesterday, Brussels also deemed Catalonia's actions illegal, even though they also critizised the police response from the central Goverment.



Barozi on 03 October 2017

Well it's against the Spanish constitution. What did you expect?

You can't seriously be in favour of this kind of seperation. We're more wealthy than the rest, so let's seperate because we're an egoisitc little group that doesn't want to help the rest of the country? Every region has its own culture. That isn't a reason for seperation though. It's not like they are being oppressed in any way.
By that logic, every city could declare independence and become a country like Monaco or Singapore.



specialk on 03 October 2017

The optics of shutting down polling places is really bad. But it's a complicated situation. It is not fascism to enforce the laws of the country and keep the state together.



JEMC on 03 October 2017

@Ka-pi: No one made a thread about it because the whole situation is so shameful, from both sides, that it's better to not talk about it.

Wright said:
*snip*

Now, I'd like to give numbers without any opinion attached to it. 2,200,000 people voted "Yes" to Independence in Catalonia through the illegal referendum (A bit less than the last time they pulled this out, though then again they didn't have the police issue back then). As far as I know, Catalonia has 7,000,000 people living there, based on the last census . It means from the total Catalonia population (that's including children - which by the way, I'm fairly sure they were allowed to vote in the illegal referendum, but don't quote me here), 31% of people do want Independence.

I won't comment about the rest of your post, but I have to do a little nit-picking here: number of habitants and number of voters are not the same thing. For starters you know that anyone under 18 years old can't vote, and also that there are a lot of foreigners living here that don't have the right to vote.

The number of voters was alledgely a little more than 5 millions.



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