Forums - Sports Discussion - NBA Finals Discussion- warriors clean up in five games, win it all 129-120

Soundwave said:
Angelus said:

This is not true. Idk about all of them, but back in 2013, Magic said his top 3 all time is MJ, himself, and Bird. Bird called Jordan God on the baskteball floor, and that was BEFORE he won 6 rings.....so you're either pulling shit out of your ass, or you're just being purposefully disingenuous

If Jordan is not in your top 5 you're blind or biased beyond belief. That's like a hockey player saying Wayne Gretzky is not top 5, it's ridiculous, and you're wrong on several of those, Magic and Bird have said Jordan is the best. Even Isiah Thomas who has every reason to hate Jordan for being left off the 92 Dream Team, lol, has varied between Jordan is the Best to Jordan is top 3. 

You mean he's wrong on several of those.....I was just correcting him



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Personally my all time top 5 goes as follows

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4 Shaquille O'Neal
5. Lebron James/Kevin Durant

I only say Kobe number 1 because I just view Kobe as a superior MJ in that he has the defense and driving skills of Jordan, but can shoot the 3 consistently (something Jordan struggled with). What I will harp on is Lebron. When in the clutch, these players were never afraid to do it themselves while making the smartest plays possible. The reason I can never put Lebron in the GOAT category is because he lacks that edge. Hell, I could even see myself saying KD will be better than Lebron all time in 2-3 years, mainly cause KD has that clutch gene in him.



If I had to make my Top list of the GOATs. It's this:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Magic Johnson
6. Tim Duncan
7. LeBron James
8. Wilt Chamberlain
9. Larry Bird
10. Shaquille O'Neal



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TH3-D0S3R said:
Personally my all time top 5 goes as follows

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4 Shaquille O'Neal
5. Lebron James/Kevin Durant

I only say Kobe number 1 because I just view Kobe as a superior MJ in that he has the defense and driving skills of Jordan, but can shoot the 3 consistently (something Jordan struggled with). What I will harp on is Lebron. When in the clutch, these players were never afraid to do it themselves while making the smartest plays possible. The reason I can never put Lebron in the GOAT category is because he lacks that edge. Hell, I could even see myself saying KD will be better than Lebron all time in 2-3 years, mainly cause KD has that clutch gene in him.

Kobe is inferior offensively and defensively to Jordan and a worse player in the clutch. MJ all day every day, beyond that Kobe only has 2 titles as the no.1 option, Jordan has six. Kobe has 2 scoring titles, Jordan had 10. This is not really close. He did a good Jordan impression, sure. 

My list is 

1. Jordan

2. Kareem 

3. LeBron 

4. Kobe

5. Shaq

6. Magic

7. Wilt

8. Russell

9. Bird

10. Hakeem 

Some of this is tough, becuase I think Bird is actually probably better than Magic, but Magic had a better overall career and redefined the game moreso.



Since basketball is a team sport here is my all time starting top 5:

PF: Tim Duncan there are a couple of guys that put up better regular season numbers but Duncan always elevated his game during the playoffs.
SF: LeBron James pretty much the most versatile small forward ever.
C: Wilt Chamberlain the best rebounder ever and second highest career scoring average after Jordan
PG: John Stockton best pure point guard ever nobody will ever come close to both his career total assist and steals those are records that will not be broken.
SG: Michael Jordan best shooting guard ever Kobe and everyone else that played in that position is a distant second.



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Tipoff is in less than two hours

Post your final score predictions!

 

I'm sticking with 127-112, Warriors' win



Soundwave said:
Nuvendil said:

By the mid 60s they were airing TV pretty regularly.  The 50s and 60s are not the same era, btw.  They are completely different.  Startin in 58 or so, the game changed in a really, really fast way.  The game played in 65 was nothing at all like 55.

Also talent pool was smaller but the league was a fraction of the size.  So talent pool relative to available positions was not as different as you think.  There were 8 NBA teams in 1960 and 14 in 1969.  That's a fraction of 1996's 29.  So fewer players but also far fewer teams.  That's how you could wind up with a team like the Celtics, where a player like Havlicek is a sixth man.   Also, going back to the TV thing, this also meant that was less of an issue.  Because you still played 79 games in 1960 and 82 games in 1969.  So you didn't need TV as much, you played these people crap ton of times.

And on the pay thing, the best players did not need that at all.  Again, you are using 50s info and applying it to the 60s.  No they weren't filthy rich, but they made a living.  Players did retire earlier, but that was largely due to the physical nature of the league.  No flagrant fouls meant the best players took a really bad beating.  

As for how players would do today, you have to look back and ask if their dominance was due to the state of the league or in spite of it.  West was not a 60s player.  He was undersized and playing in a league where it was all about being strong and playing physical in the paint.  He was a great range shooter in a league where a 3 point shot was just a low percentage 2.  He was a great on ball defender in a league where the pace of the game made it so he couldn't make use of that skill.  West would actually be a far better fit for today's league than the 1960s.  And Russell and Wilt would be great because the foundation of their greatness was athleticism and basketball IQ, which is forever.  WIlt Chamberlain played in a league where he was pummelled constantly, had to play at a very fast pace, and was the primary scoring option for most of his career.  And he averaged over 45 minutes played a game.  In 61-62, he averaged 48.5 minutes per game.  That is, more minutes per game than in a game.  And though not quite as in human, Russell was similarly built on athleticism and endurance.  For those kind of players, the current league with its gentler play and slower pace would be right up their alley.  Especially Wilt, who was also a very clean player, never fouling out once in his career.  I mean, I would just say in general that athleticism is the least of the problems your 60s greats would face.  

But yes, some players would struggle.  As is the case in most eras, your mid tier players would really have a hard time because a lot of them took advantage of calling tendancies and such.  But I would say that Wilt, Russell, Oscar, West, and Baylor would all fit in very well in our era.  And Havlicek as well.  I mean shoot, Havlicek went on after Russell retired to lead a new Celtics squad to championships in 74 and 76, so his success was definitely not due to the 60s era.  And btw, that speaks to the quality of the 60s Celtics since he was coming off the bench for a good part of the 60s.  The all time leader in total points scored for the Celtics was their sixth man.  

Point is, in any era there are a lot of players who wouldn't transplant well to another because their success is predicated on the particulars of that league.  That's why analysis of "greatest of all time" and trying to figure out how great a player is outside of that context is challenging and interesting.

Also by "fit in very well" I think Russell would be a decent player, but he'd be no where close to the best player in the game now. LeBron is way better than him. 

The only player from the 60s that I feel could legit be a top 5 player in the modern NBA is maybe Wilt because and even he would be nowhere close to a 50 ppg player and even he would have to make big adjustments to his game IMO. 

"Pro sports" was a joke in the 60s, most players couldn't do it full time and had to have seperate jobs and the like, the training was no where close to what it is today, the player development that starts today on kids basically from junior high onwards is radically different from the 60s, etc. etc. etc. 

Virtually every sport is far better today than it was in the 60s ... sprinters are faster today, the best swimmer today would murder the best swimmer from the 60s, the best tennis player from the 60s would get demolished today, the best hockey team from the 60s would get blown out today, etc. etc. I don't view baskeball much differently.

Well Russell wasn't the best then either.  In terms of individual skill, Wilt, West, Oscare, and Baylor were all better.  Russell was just athletic, intelligent, and determined as all hell.  As far as defense goes, he would be a fantastic defender.  I mean, he basically invented modern defense and was famous for his reflexes and blocking ability.  Where he would struggle would be offense.  He was competent when needed back then but couldn't really make his own shot.  He is best as a centerpiece of a well rounded team, as he is a great leader.  Honestly, he would fit right in in this day and age where big men aren't as big nor as domminant and are mainly looked to for their rim and lane protection.

Wilt would be dominant I think in the current state of things due to the sheer lack of great big men.  And he has enough endurance to run a team's big men ragged.  And who is going to guard him?  Iguadala?  Tristan Thompson?  Dwight Howard?  Please.  His stiffest competition would be the early to mid 2000s with Shaq.  Would be an amazing matchup to see, being the two most physical and strong centers to ever play.  Wilt's biggest advantage would probably be his range though.  He could shoot from mid range and even fairly long range far better than Shaq.  And we all know Shaq's advantage is his mass which he could use well.  Would be epic.  

But I think West is the most out of time player.  I mean, he had a good 3 point shot before that was a thing.  Give him a 3 point line that gives him better looks, an extra point for long range shots, and spreads the defense to make getting inside easier, and you would see a completely different player.  And his flexibility was something else.  He switched from shooting guard to point guard with like a few months' notice and immediately went from being the best shooting guard in the league to being the second best point gaurd in the league right behind Oscar Robinson with a high assists average.  So yeah, I think West would be a top tier player in this day and age once he acclimated to the pace of things and the various rule changes.

And yes, most sports are better today, but I think Basketbal and Golf are the most complex to analyze.  Rules changed a ton in Basketball, with the 3 point line completely changing the pace and rendering decades of strategy obsolete.  And in Golf an enormous ammount has changed in terms of equipment and course design, making it hard to tell if modern players could play with all that old equipment on courses that were more about extreme precision than current courses (still think athletically today's player's are superior, it's a matter of technique here).  Point is, in basketball I would say there has been a much less linear progression than with sprinting or swimming.  Those are all the same, just go faster than your oponent.  

Basketball's rules and call tendancies are night and day when you compare the old game to the modern game.  And that in itself shapes the players.  Look at Shaq.  Would he be crazy physically dominant back then?  Absolutely.  But would he be able to play the kind of minutes needed?  Probably not.  That's not a dis on Shaq, he was built around his era, an era with a slower pace, a more spread court, and where you aren't expected to play as many minutes.  Could he adapt?  Absolutely.  But then you have a different version of Shaq.  Wilt is similarly built for his time, I just feel his is more flexible with what era you plug him into.  Curry is another player who has benefited enormously from changes in call tendancies concerning carrying, fouls, etc.  The ammount of space he can create for himself as a result allows him to be domminant despite being undersized and not very strong.  He would even run into trouble in the mid 90s.  Could he adapt?  Yes, he could.  Jordan did.  The greatest of the greats can adapt to those kinds of things.  It's all about boiling a player down to their abilities when analyzing them.  It's never a clear answer though.



Chris Hu said:
Since basketball is a team sport here is my all time starting top 5:

PF: Tim Duncan there are a couple of guys that put up better regular season numbers but Duncan always elevated his game during the playoffs.
SF: LeBron James pretty much the most versatile small forward ever.
C: Wilt Chamberlain the best rebounder ever and second highest career scoring average after Jordan
PG: John Stockton best pure point guard ever nobody will ever come close to both his career total assist and steals those are records that will not be broken.
SG: Michael Jordan best shooting guard ever Kobe and everyone else that played in that position is a distant second.

I think I'd go ... 

C- Wilt

PF - Olajuwon

SF - Bird

SG - Jordan

PG - LeBron

And I'd ask Wilt to focus more on defence as he did later in his career. I think you'd have a hard time coming up with a group of 5 that could beat that team. 

 



As for predictions in this game, I have none.
All I have is a desire to see the Cavs play like they want it. Not just with skill but with drive. They need both. If they can force a game 5, they will have their dignity. If they can force 6, I will be very pleased. But all I want to see is a fight. Like Apollo said, you gotta have that eye of the tiger.

And as for top 10, I don't have an organized list. I have tiers.

Tier 1: Michael, Wilt, Kareem
Tier 1.5 (may go up or down): LeBron James
Tier 2: Kobe, West, Bird, Magic, Russell, Oscar, Shaq you know all those guys, the almost contenders
Tier 3: everyone else

I don't have them in a strict order in my head. Tier 1 and Tier 2 guys are all really tight races and James is in between them, just have to see how his career finishes out. I will say I have Kobe and West virtually tied, with West slightly above Kobe. Russell is towards the bottom of that list and Shaq near the top. Russell just lacks the individual abilities.



Soundwave said:
Chris Hu said:
Since basketball is a team sport here is my all time starting top 5:

PF: Tim Duncan there are a couple of guys that put up better regular season numbers but Duncan always elevated his game during the playoffs.
SF: LeBron James pretty much the most versatile small forward ever.
C: Wilt Chamberlain the best rebounder ever and second highest career scoring average after Jordan
PG: John Stockton best pure point guard ever nobody will ever come close to both his career total assist and steals those are records that will not be broken.
SG: Michael Jordan best shooting guard ever Kobe and everyone else that played in that position is a distant second.

I think I'd go ... 

C- Wilt

PF - Olajuwon

SF - Bird

SG - Jordan

PG - LeBron

And I'd ask Wilt to focus more on defence as he did later in his career. I think you'd have a hard time coming up with a group of 5 that could beat that team. 

 

That sounds pretty similar to my starting 5 honestly :P

Second string would be the fun list...wait what?  LeBron at point? xD

Edit:  and yeah, when Wilt needed to be he could be a defensive beast.  Back early on when he was literally the only good thing going on on his team, he was their everything.  In his first encounter with Walt Bellamy, the second best offesnive center at the time, Walt scored a grand total of 0 points in the first half while Wilt got 9 blocks.  Gus Johnson tried to dunk on Wilt and got blocked so hard it dislocated his shoulder. :P