Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Project Scorpio Official Thread: New Video On Forza

Pretty disappointing if i just look at the specs. Just like with the PS4 Pro the CPU with 2.3 Ghz again is pretty underpowered unlike what many people predicted here, or in comparison what you would except from MS as they had quite some time to see the results of the PS4 Pro for months.

Now again like with everything Microsoft related there is much emphasise on the DX. The theory has to be seen in practice for all the games, what DF isnt pointing out is that Forza Horizon 6 is already a Windows 10 store optimized game so its pretty obvious why it should run so good or being able to be ported in 2 days.



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6tf, meh, my comp has two 11.3 tflop gpu's.



JRPGfan said:

Scorpio is HDMI 2.1 .... and will support FreeSync!!!!  No more screen tearing.

Now we just need TV sellers to start makeing gameing TV's with HDR+FreeSync+4k.

I thought frame rate would be locked to 60fps, why does it need hdmi 2.1 :p

Actually DF only mentions HDMI 2.0, should be at least 2.0a for HDR.
"On the display output, of course, HDMI 2.0 - we need that for the additional frame-rate for 4K and also HDR and the wide colour gamut," says Nick Baker.
A typo I guess since HDMi 2.0 doesn't do HDR while 2.1 also supports dynamic HDR.

Btw perhaps I missed it in all the information and secret sauces, but was VR mentioned anywhere?



Ruler said:

Pretty disappointing if i just look at the specs. Just like with the PS4 Pro the CPU with 2.3 Ghz again is pretty underpowered unlike what many people predicted here, or in comparison what you would except from MS as they had quite some time to see the results of the PS4 Pro for months.

Now again like with everything Microsoft related there is much emphasise on the DX. The theory has to be seen in practice for all the games, what DF isnt pointing out is that Forza Horizon 6 is already a Windows 10 store optimized game so its pretty obvious why it should run so good or being able to be ported in 2 days.

PS4 Pro's limiting factor/bottleneck is not the CPU, is its total design.

Its the fact that it barely has any more memory bandwidth that the original PS4 to task it with twice the GPU. Its not a balanced system.

Also DF touches on the the custom GPU Command Controller/ DX12 hardware baked into the design that will result in half the CPU cost DX12 rendered titles currently  use. 

Custom hardware design around rendering at its finest. 

PC hardware is VERY inefficient with graphics hardware as rendering is not its primary design, lack of unified memory, etc...

Scorpio wont be a 1080ti killer, but they could very well extrapolate similar graphics grunt from this machine as a 980Ti/GTX1070 plus more in a DX12 optimized environment.




PC I i7 3770K @4.5Ghz I 16GB 2400Mhz I GTX 980Ti FTW

Consoles I PS4 Pro I Xbox One S 2TB I Wii U I Xbox 360 S

Based on the reveal today, this thing is going to make games look AWESOME!



It is near the end of the end....

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barneystinson69 said:

Evolved Jaguar core. Upclocked to 2.3 Ghz. Improved, but very similar. So yeah, when people said it wouldn't be 399$...

"All signs point to the upclocked Jaguar cores we find in Xbox One, and Scorpio's CPU set-up is indeed an evolution of that tech, but subject to extensive customisation and the offloading of key tasks to dedicated hardware." - Digital Foundry.

There is still potential room for it to be Puma (Which is "evolved Jaguar") from what I read on Digital Foundry.


barneystinson69 said:

Evolved Jaguar core. Upclocked to 2.3 Ghz. Improved, but very similar. So yeah, when people said it wouldn't be 399$...

31 per cent faster clock rate, with some extra customizations to reduce latency likely due to the abolishment of eSRAM and DDR3.

They have offloaded some CPU tasks onto dedicated blocks aswell it seems... It seems to me a part of Direct X 12 has been moved onto the GPU's command processor as well. This is absolutely significant. (But I will need to dig more into this over the next few days to find it's limits/pro's/con's etc.)

With that, Goossen states that rendering overhead has been cut in half. That's massive.


walsufnir said:
Not that impressed by now...

Well. It didn't help that people thought this machine was going to have specs higher than what it was realistically going to have.


barneystinson69 said:

Forza 7 can run at 4k 60FPS. Was ported in just 2 days.

Should be mentioned it was demonstrated with original Xbox One levels of visuals and there was still some spare processing.

xl-klaudkil said:
Soo still a huge cpu bottleneck?
Looks amazing for xbox fans

Yep. Still a shit CPU. Just less crap than the other consoles.
But thanks to some changes in the name of efficiency, the CPU is going to be bogged down with less menial stuff.

taus90 said:
I think there is a mistake.. Cpu is going to hold back that gpu... Should have clocked those core higher at least 2.7 or 2.9 considering it is finfet at 14nm. 0.3 upgrade over pro which is i believe 28nm... I dont know, have i missed something..

Yes and no. The lowest common denominator for multiplatforms and CPU performance is still the Playstation 4. Games will be built with that CPU in mind.

Higher clocks were unlikely to be feasible, shrinking a CPU uArch isn't going to automagically always give you increased clock rate headroom.


barneystinson69 said:

If thats true, it'll flop. Microsoft cannot think it can compete against the Pro even if it is more powerful when we're talking 349 vs 499. I'm definently feeling 399 here, especially with the uplocked Jaguar CPU.

It was never going to outsell Sony regardless of how powerful it is.


bananaking21 said:

the difference between 4K native and 4k Checkboard is no where near the difference between 720p and 1080.

There is a massive difference between 4k Checkerboard and 4k Native. It is highly dependent on Display, your eye quality and distance from display.

Checkerboard is just a stop-gap solution due to hardware that is inadequate to do a proper 4k job. - And guess what? Scorpio also supports 4k Checkerboarding so if a developer whishes to push fidelity over resolution, they can... Which also means Checkerboard isn't likely a Sony technique. It's an AMD one.

shikamaru317 said:

 They tested Forza 6 Apex on PC (which is basically the same as the Scorpio tech demo they were shown) and found that it took a 1070 to hit 4K 60 FPS ultra settings on it like they were shown on Scorpio.

Need more info on that though. What settings were they using on the 1070? The Scorpio was using Xbox One level visuals, just at 4k 60fps.

Plus we need more GPU details.

Ruler said:

Pretty disappointing if i just look at the specs. Just like with the PS4 Pro the CPU with 2.3 Ghz again is pretty underpowered unlike what many people predicted here, or in comparison what you would except from MS as they had quite some time to see the results of the PS4 Pro for months.

Now again like with everything Microsoft related there is much emphasise on the DX. The theory has to be seen in practice for all the games, what DF isnt pointing out is that Forza Horizon 6 is already a Windows 10 store optimized game so its pretty obvious why it should run so good or being able to be ported in 2 days.

Microsoft have offloaded a significant amount of CPU time onto dedicated hardware blocks as well as make the software stack more efficient. The CPU whilst underwhelming is going to be put to better use with less wastage.


Mafioso said:

PS4 Pro's limiting factor/bottleneck is not the CPU, is its total design.

Its the fact that it barely has any more memory bandwidth that the original PS4 to task it with twice the GPU. Its not a balanced system.

Whilst true, the bandwidth didn't increase in a linear rate with GPU compute performance... Just remember that 100GB/s of bandwidth on the Playstation 4  isn't the same 100GB/s of bandwidth on the Playstation 4 Pro.

AMD did introduce this thing called "Delta Colour Compression". - Which can boost memory bandwidth efficiency by a good 15-40% in ideal scenarios.

There is more to a chip than just it's brute-force numbers.

Mafioso said:

Custom hardware design around rendering at its finest. 

PC hardware is VERY inefficient with graphics hardware as rendering is not its primary design, lack of unified memory, etc...

Scorpio wont be a 1080ti killer, but they could very well extrapolate similar graphics grunt from this machine as a 980Ti/GTX1070 plus more in a DX12 optimized environment.

Semi-Custom. Not Custom. And it's a massive advantage in a closed environment. The PC's advantage is that is actually has more brute force, that it's open...

Just keep in mind that Scorpio is still beaten by an enthusiast-grade PC that is already a few years old... And it hasn't even released yet.

Landguy said:
Based on the reveal today, this thing is going to make games look AWESOME!

It will certainly have the best visuals out of any console.


*******************************************************

*Breathes*
Got a message saying the tech info got released while I was going to sleep, so there goes sleep. #techhead

My own thoughts are thus...

* Scorpio's SoC is seven billion transistors. The SoC itself could cost as much as 50% or more than the Xbox One S SoC to fabricate.

* HEVC encoding is in. Yay.

* Super Sampling is handled by the system. Not the developer. So any and all games that are rendered at a higher resolution than your display should be super sampled.

* Vapour Chamber Cooling is also in. Which I hinted (Probably in this thread) as being a possible thing before the reveal.

* 245w PSU. Could be 90% or more efficient?

* No news on what GPU architecture it is using, whether it's GCN architecture (I hope not!) or NCU Architecture.

* No news on the CPU architecture. It's 100% definitive it's Cat core based.

Hate to say "I told you so" on the CPU and cooling front. Ryzen is out. Sorry about those who had unrealistic expectations, but it was never meant to be.

I will personally be picking one up myself. Might even pre-order it.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:

There is still potential room for it to be Puma (Which is "evolved Jaguar") from what I read on Digital Foundry.

I think that if it's Puma inside, they would show it now, simply to get " better than a Pro " effect. Of course fingers crossed that it will happen, but chances are slim.

Actually Im disappointed, with that 12 GB and other stuff the bootleneck would bite them in the ass badly, more than Jaguar in Pro.



Was there a video presentation? I can't find any online.

Never mind, just found it by Digital Foundry. That's pretty cool that they revealed it through them, I love those guys :)



Scorpio looks very impressive. Will definitely buy. Will update the thread later today.



 

taus90 said:
I think there is a mistake.. Cpu is going to hold back that gpu... Should have clocked those core higher at least 2.7 or 2.9 considering it is finfet at 14nm. 0.3 upgrade over pro which is i believe 28nm... I dont know, have i missed something..

Yes and no. The lowest common denominator for multiplatforms and CPU performance is still the Playstation 4. Games will be built with that CPU in mind.

Higher clocks were unlikely to be feasible, shrinking a CPU uArch isn't going to automagically always give you increased clock rate headroom.


I m sorry isnt one of the biggest reason for shrinking chips fabrication process is to bring better performance, better cooling, Lower TDP (for better Clock Rate), Huh didnt knew people were only doing to just save space. Or are you saying MS might have deliberatly choose not take advantage of FinFet design which theoritically doubles the advantage of the similar size node. Either I am learning something new out here or CPU sounds horribly inefficient for a 14nm finfet to be running at 2.3 vs 2.1 PRO (which i assume is 16nm or maybe 28nm based on the heat and noise pro generates).