Forums - Sony Discussion - PS4.5/PS4K Is Codenamed 'NEO' And More Info

AEGRO said:

Sour Apple Royalty on PS4/Xbone Upgrades: It'd Be a "Gigantic Pain in the Ass"

"It's funny, there's actually some stories behind that. For example, the original Xbox...Microsoft actually had multiple different DVD drives. They didn't tell anyone that, but as a developer you discovered that you have different performance and sometimes you'd have these boxes of refurbished drives and different brands and different equipment. It caused incredible variability."

Zeschuk went on to say the benefit of having locked system specs as consoles currently do is that it's clear to developers what they are working with.

So he contrasts the PS4.5 situation, where there is one new fully documented spec that scales up the same platform...
To an undocumented variability stemming from several drive providers, which may have stealth regressed an existing spec.
Obviously his rant on "clarity" to devs re: what they are working with is just wholly inapplicable to the PS4.5 scenario.
From Oct onward, they will be REQUIRED to release games with specific performance requirements (1080p+) for PS4.5 spec.



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mutantsushi said:
Lawlight said:
Does anyone know how this will translate in terms of difference in games?

For one, all new PS4 games from October onward will be REQUIRED to have PS4.5 version which has 1080p+ resolution requirement.
They will also be required to have the SAME or HIGHER frames-per-second as PS4.0 version...
 So higher fps seems likely to be common.
Other than that, I expect expanded scope/usage of stuff like GPU-physics, GPU-audio-raytracing, better lighting and graphic FX.
Morpheus/PSVR games already are pushed to have high frame-rates, for which they will have to sacrifice normal graphic niceties,
so the PS4.5 version of those VR games will be able to add back graphic FX, and/or go for even higher FPS, etc...

In Eurogamer's take on the leak, they discuss how there will be feature-parity across 4.0/4.5, i.e. that gameplay is supposed to be the same...
But then describe it by saying that PS4.0 might allow for 2-way split-screen gameplay, but PS4.5 might allow for 4-way split screen gameplay.
...Which really is a significant difference in gameplay IMHO, but that sort of thing may be technically allowable, apparently.

Where do you get required from?

Sony really wants Neo support on all games from October onwards. While older titles can have Neo features patched in, the platform holder will not allow new titles to add Neo features at a later date.

They don't allow you to add it later from October onwards, but devs can still ignore it. The fps requirement is so that ps4.5k versions don't run worse due to using too high a resolution, which must be minimum 1080p. So higher fps is not likely to be common, it's simply required to be equal or more stable than ps4.

It all points mostly to a resolution bump for the Neo version, with likely downsampling to 1080p or upscaling to 4K. I doubt any devs will go for specific graphics or audio features for the NEO version, bump up shadow detail and reflections at most. No point in supporting a whole different enhanced lighting system.

Sinply look at the differences in XBox One and ps4 games, for ps4 and NEO it makes even less sense to add extra features. Resolution will be the biggest difference, next to a more stable frame rate. The question is will ps4 games now slip to 900p sub 30fps and XBox One versions to 720p? Or will things stay the same with NEO rendering at 1440p with better AA. (I guess the latter)



SvennoJ said:
mutantsushi said:
For one, all new PS4 games from October onward will be REQUIRED to have PS4.5 version which has 1080p+ resolution requirement.
They will also be required to have the SAME or HIGHER frames-per-second as PS4.0 version... 
 So higher fps seems likely to be common.

Where do you get required from?   

Eurogamer.  Which you seemed to also acknowledge in your follow up: (italicized/bolded)

SvennoJ said:
The fps requirement is so that ps4.5k versions don't run worse due to using too high a resolution, which must be minimum 1080p. 
So higher fps is not likely to be common, it's simply required to be equal or more stable than ps4.

I don't see why a variable-FPS game would NOT be expected to have higher fps given more hardware.

SvennoJ said:
Sony really wants Neo support on all games from October onwards. While older titles can have Neo features patched in, the platform holder will not allow new titles to add Neo features at a later date.

They don't allow you to add it later from October onwards, but devs can still ignore it.  

Not sure how you get "can still ignore" from "required".  
Patching is option for older games, new games must be "pre-patched" from Day 1, 1080p+ requirement applies.

SvennoJ said:
It all points mostly to a resolution bump for the Neo version, with likely downsampling to 1080p or upscaling to 4K. I doubt any devs will go for specific graphics or audio features for the NEO version, bump up shadow detail and reflections at most. No point in supporting a whole different enhanced lighting system. 

Sure, but if a game suppors enhanced lighting/ whatever FX while in singleplayer on 4.0 (or in PC version etc),
and 4.5 can support that alongside higher performance multiplayer mode, than why wouldn't it do so?  
Sure, most devs won't invest in completely new engine details, but if they exist in some form, then I expect them to implement them if possible.
We see stuff like GPU physics implemented as hardware-dependent subset on PC games, don't see why it wouldn't apply here...
Of course they already have to fulfill 1080p minimum with same/higher FPS req., so tweaking other graphic FX alongside that optimization is plausible.
Obviously it's forseeable that 1st party devs will push more than 3rd parties to show off the system capabilities...
Although given x-platform games CURRENTLY offer more engine features on PC, those should also tend to carry over to PS4.5...

mutantsushi said:
Other than that, I expect expanded scope/usage of stuff like GPU-physics, GPU-audio-raytracing, better lighting and graphic FX.
Morpheus/PSVR games already are pushed to have high frame-rates, for which they will have to sacrifice normal graphic niceties,
so the PS4.5 version of those VR games will be able to add back graphic FX, and/or go for even higher FPS, etc...

In Eurogamer's take on the leak, they discuss how there will be feature-parity across 4.0/4.5, i.e. that gameplay is supposed to be the same...
But then describe it by saying that PS4.0 might allow for 2-way split-screen gameplay, but PS4.5 might allow for 4-way split screen gameplay.
...Which really is a significant difference in gameplay IMHO, but that sort of thing may be technically allowable, apparently.



^ He said. (I suck at editting nested stuff)

Sony really wants Neo support on all games from October onwards. While older titles can have Neo features patched in, the platform holder will not allow new titles to add Neo features at a later date.

Show me required in that sentence.

By higher fps not likely to be common, I mean don't expect 30fps - 60fps difference. Most NEO games will run more stable, still with the same fps cap.

Sure, but if a game suppors enhanced lighting/ whatever FX while in singleplayer on 4.0 (or in PC version etc),
and 4.5 can support that alongside higher performance multiplayer mode, than why wouldn't it do so? 

True, also for splitscreen I imagine, no drop in visuals neccesary.  However I was talking about the single player portion of the game.
Which raises another question, if the NEO multiplayer version is full of enhanced smoke and particle effects, which the ps4 base version would not see, wouldn't that be an advantage? Or the other way around, NEO players being able to see ps4 players coming around a corner by enhanced shadows, lighting or reflections.

But full featured split-screen at 1440p, co-op online without any downgrades, that's all very possible indeed.



mutantsushi said:
Lawlight said:
Does anyone know how this will translate in terms of difference in games?

For one, all new PS4 games from October onward will be REQUIRED to have PS4.5 version which has 1080p+ resolution requirement.
They will also be required to have the SAME or HIGHER frames-per-second as PS4.0 version...  So higher fps seems likely to be common.
Other than that, I expect expanded scope/usage of stuff like GPU-physics, GPU-audio-raytracing, better lighting and graphic FX.
Morpheus/PSVR games already are pushed to have high frame-rates, for which they will have to sacrifice normal graphic niceties,
so the PS4.5 version of those VR games will be able to add back graphic FX, and/or go for even higher FPS, etc...

In Eurogamer's take on the leak, they discuss how there will be feature-parity across 4.0/4.5, i.e. that gameplay is supposed to be the same...
But then describe it by saying that PS4.0 might allow for 2-way split-screen gameplay, but PS4.5 might allow for 4-way split screen gameplay.
...Which really is a significant difference in gameplay IMHO, but that sort of thing may be technically allowable, apparently.

The last part is pure speculation from Eurogamer. There is no way Sony will allow difference in gameplay between the 2 consoles.



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You gotta love how random rumors start to get treated as fact so quickly. Even the price.



Seems like a bad idea, especially from a financial perspective, always has. What's the motivation here, the end game? Possibly a preemptive move? That's probably the hardest part for me to believe and why I never have.



In this day and age, with the Internet, ignorance is a choice! And they're still choosing Ignorance! - Dr. Filthy Frank

SvennoJ said:
mutantsushi said:
SvennoJ said:
Where do you get required from?   
Eurogamer.  Which you seemed to also acknowledge in your follow up: (italicized/bolded)
SvennoJ said:
The fps requirement is so that ps4.5k versions don't run worse due to using too high a resolution, which must be minimum 1080p. 
So higher fps is not likely to be common, it's simply required to be equal or more stable than ps4
Sony really wants Neo support on all games from October onwards. While older titles can have Neo features patched in, the platform holder will not allow new titles to add Neo features at a later date.

Show me required in that sentence.

OK, this is the source.... (Eurogamer)  (2nd bolded heading in article, 3 headings above one you seem to be focusing on)
Still not sure why you're questioning this when you seemed aware of the requirement previously, as I quoted/bolded.

SvennoJ said:

By higher fps not likely to be common, I mean don't expect 30fps - 60fps difference. Most NEO games will run more stable, still with the same fps cap.

OK, by higher fps likely to be common (not universal), I meant likely to have more unique frames in a gaming session -> higher avg fps.
30fps>60fps clearly would be unlikely given specs, although if a game was locked 30 by dev choice (capable of higher variable rate),
then it's plausible it could achieve reliable 60fps, and a dev might go for that if they didn't have other easy/worthwhile FX improvements.

SvennoJ said:

True, also for splitscreen I imagine, no drop in visuals neccesary.  However I was talking about the single player portion of the game.
Which raises another question, if the NEO multiplayer version is full of enhanced smoke and particle effects, which the ps4 base version would not see, wouldn't that be an advantage? Or the other way around, NEO players being able to see ps4 players coming around a corner by enhanced shadows, lighting or reflections.

If a dev is aiming for FPS parity for multiplayer competitive parity's sake, I assume they wouldn't introduce FX which have competitive advantage.

More interesting tangent:  
MS dropped their resistance to x-platform multiplayer, so the broader issue is not merely PS4/4.5 multiplayer disparity, but XBO/PS4/PS4.5 disparity.



Lawlight said:
mutantsushi said:
In Eurogamer's take on the leak, they discuss how there will be feature-parity across 4.0/4.5, i.e. that gameplay is supposed to be the same...

But then describe it by saying that PS4.0 might allow for 2-way split-screen gameplay, but PS4.5 might allow for 4-way split screen gameplay.
...Which really is a significant difference in gameplay IMHO, but that sort of thing may be technically allowable, apparently.

The last part is pure speculation from Eurogamer. There is no way Sony will allow difference in gameplay between the 2 consoles.

I guess time will tell.  
Honestly, split-screen is marginal enough now, I'd be happy to see it expand, even if being more of a PS4.5 exclusive feature.



Nate4Drake said:
Soundwave said:

This isn't for 4K gaming, I think the term "PS4K" just got thrown around mistakenly probably because it does allow for 4K Blu-Ray movie playback. PS4.5 is more accurate, it's a huge GPU upgrade with a moderate CPU upgrade. 

Yep; nobody ever talked about AAA Games running at 4K; and as we don't know for sure if Polaris will be used, our friend above also have no idea how the new architecture works, how much more efficient it is, and how much more memory compression is used, improved shader efficiency, hardware scheduler, instruction Pre-Fetch, etc etc; so, I would say again, let's try not to be rudiculous, and let the experts work on it, they know more than us ;)   

I do know how the architecture works, I have been using PC hardware before it ended up in a console and people started looking at all the shiny buzz words to use in their arguments.
Sony stated it's a newer GCN core than in the PS4. Which means anywhere between GCN 1.1 to 1.2. (It won't be using Polaris/GCN 4 due the feature size.)

Colour compression to save bandwidth will likely still not be enough for AAA 4k gaming.
The other improvements are relatively minor (Context Switching, Task Scheduling)  and won't change the landscape dramatically in GCN 1.2.

The other big improvement is in the Geometry end, it's twice as powerful as GCN 1.0, good thing with that though is you can scale the factors dynamically, so it would literally be like moving a slider between the PS4 and Neo.

I do agree, more information is needed. But you CANNOT ridicule someone for "Guessing" when you do the EXACT same damn thing.

Lawlight said:
Does anyone know how this will translate in terms of difference in games?

Geometry is the big one. More bumpy surfaces.

Lighting and Shadowing and Shader effects will likely be a step closer to the PC, Anti-Aliasing will probably not be as simple anymore either.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--