Forums - Gaming Discussion - Project H.A.M.M.E.R untold story, the fall of Nintendo Software Technology and racism within Nintendo

RolStoppable said:
pokoko said:

Wow, that's ... quite a take on the situation.  You're saying that the management of NST had nothing to do with the game until late in development?  That they had nothing to do with the planning and direction of the project?  That they didn't become involved until they had to "save" the game?  Because that doesn't make much sense and I don't remember it as what the video was saying.  Do you have an alternate source for that?

From what I understood from the narrative, the game was bad in the first place because management and development were not on the same page at all.  Developers knew it wasn't very good but no little or no input on the direction the game was taking.  I simply don't understand why you'd want to put all the blame on the developers.

You really don't have to bend over backwards to protect some middle-management types.  Admitting that the development situation at NST was toxic does not make Nintendo as a whole look bad.  It's pretty clear that when you have mass resignations that you're dealing with a less than perfect working environment.  ANY business will try to understand the problems and what went wrong so that it does not happen again.  That's business 101.

I am saying that the core gameplay was conceived by the developers, and only afterwards did the situation arise that the developers and management couldn't agree on a solution. During the initial phase of game development, management lays out a direction, but it's up to the developers to create the basic gameplay. Like, management says that they want to have a giant hammer as the main weapon in the game, but the developers get to work and come up with a combat system. Said combat is the reason why this game was never any fun at any point, so that is the developers' fault.

I didn't put all the blame on the developers. I said the game should have been canned instead of continuing development. This includes especially the management decision to change the artstyle, because poor core gameplay is going to remain poor core gameplay regardless of the game's looks.

I'll ignore the first two sentences of your last paragraph because they don't apply to me. Like I said in my previous post, the aftermath is that development at NST has run smoothly since then. So the question remains, what's there to learn from this? The culprits of the failed Project H.A.M.M.E.R. are gone; the developers have resigned, the management has been replaced or if it's still in place, it hasn't committed the same mistake since then. Additionally, how many Nintendo-affiliated studios have gone through something similar since 2009 when NST's failure got cancelled for good? It doesn't seem like there have been any significant problems, so it looks like you are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

First, I've hardly made a moutain out of anything.

Second, again, I'd like to know why you believe the development team was unsupervised while they worked on this project.  Most of NST's games have had Japanese transplants in the producer role and I believe that was the case here.  Usually project management has more than a bit of say in the direction of a game right from the very start.  I can think of absolutely no reason why it would be any different here.  The game did not get to the 75% complete point before the people in charge of the project peeked into the room.

Management is ALWAYS responsible for a project from start to finish.  If, as you say, they were not paying attention to what was going on until the last minute, then that's a much worse allegation.

As for the studio not making the same mistake again, that's true.  They've worked on nothing ambitious since then and what they have worked on has been Japanese style games.  

That, actually, leads me to believe that Nintendo has learned something from the NST situation: if your intention is to make a "western style" game, giving project control to transplanted Japanese management doesn't make much sense.



Around the Network
Goatseye said:
Ruler said:

yep Nintendo shutting down an American Studio is racist (which is not possible because Americans are not an ethnicity) but Microsoft shutting down Japanese developers like Mistwalker and Artoon is totally fine and has no discrimination involved according to the media?

Nintendo's Wii was never made for AAA but this studio wanted to go in the direction which is more expensive to develop than cartoony games made by Nintendo. Its no rocket science why they didnt want to support this game for the Wii which sold millions despite being a last gen console and lacking AAA games at the time. The game doesnt fit with Nintendos concept.

You have no credibility whatsoever when you say MS shut down Mistwalker and Artoon.

-Mistwalker is still active

-Artoon belonged to a Japanese publisher that filed for bankruptcy

Defend Nintendo but don't add bullshit in the middle.


Its pretty much the same, MS didnt want to fund their games and ruined both, mistwalker was working on Cry On was pretty far in devolopemnt before cancelled. Same situation MS didnt want to fund it. Bungie and Epic never belonged to MS but that didnt stop them funding their games and buying up their IPs



Ruler said:
Goatseye said:
Ruler said:

yep Nintendo shutting down an American Studio is racist (which is not possible because Americans are not an ethnicity) but Microsoft shutting down Japanese developers like Mistwalker and Artoon is totally fine and has no discrimination involved according to the media?

Nintendo's Wii was never made for AAA but this studio wanted to go in the direction which is more expensive to develop than cartoony games made by Nintendo. Its no rocket science why they didnt want to support this game for the Wii which sold millions despite being a last gen console and lacking AAA games at the time. The game doesnt fit with Nintendos concept.

You have no credibility whatsoever when you say MS shut down Mistwalker and Artoon.

-Mistwalker is still active

-Artoon belonged to a Japanese publisher that filed for bankruptcy

Defend Nintendo but don't add bullshit in the middle.


Its pretty much the same, MS didnt want to fund their games and ruined both, mistwalker was working on Cry On was pretty far in devolopemnt before cancelled. Same situation MS didnt want to fund it. Bungie and Epic never belonged to MS but that didnt stop them funding their games and buying up their IPs

Mistwalker exists today because MS put them together (funding) and Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon were their form of payment to MS. MS don't owe Sakaguhi any favors, on the contrary. Saying that MS ruined Artoon is the same as saying that MS ruined DICE (EA), how much sense does that make? Is gaming business a charity?

Bungie was a MS subsidiary from 2000 til they dropped Halo 3. They were a first party studio.

Epic's Gears of War had hit written all over it. Why wouldn't they fund it?

Again, you're simply spouting bs and don't even care to fact check on the internet.



Samus Aran said:
oniyide said:

from what you hear? GoW? Uncharted, the proof is in the games. When was the last time Ninty had a series that was western developed that was anywhere close to GoW and Uncharted in terms of scope and support? ANd im not talking some old IP that was just assigned to some company.

And its not just Ninty they just seem to be able to get away with it more, Sega has been known to do this for a long time

And what about the games of Sony of Japan? Not so pretty huh.

Nintendo focuses on Japanese studios, Sony on Western.

actually it is pretty, the games they make are alright, but they dont have much appeal over here, so they dont get pushed over here as much, but im sure in there home country they are fine. Hell Hot Shots Golf is still popular people love that Tori cat thing, which is an exclusive mascot in Japan. ANd not to mention there European branch that made WIpeout(RIP) Killzones, LBPs that upcoming Horizon game. Naw bro SOny is ok in this department and even then one branch isnt imposing its will on another which is what this whole thing is about anyway.



pokoko said:

First, I've hardly made a moutain out of anything.

Second, again, I'd like to know why you believe the development team was unsupervised while they worked on this project.  Most of NST's games have had Japanese transplants in the producer role and I believe that was the case here.  Usually project management has more than a bit of say in the direction of a game right from the very start.  I can think of absolutely no reason why it would be any different here.  The game did not get to the 75% complete point before the people in charge of the project peeked into the room.

Management is ALWAYS responsible for a project from start to finish.  If, as you say, they were not paying attention to what was going on until the last minute, then that's a much worse allegation.

As for the studio not making the same mistake again, that's true.  They've worked on nothing ambitious since then and what they have worked on has been Japanese style games.  

That, actually, leads me to believe that Nintendo has learned something from the NST situation: if your intention is to make a "western style" game, giving project control to transplanted Japanese management doesn't make much sense.

Acting like a topic is deserving of elaborate discussion when there's actually not much to say about it is the definition of making a mountain out of a molehill. There isn't much to say here. A game got cancelled, some developers resigned, the studio went on to deliver solid work again. Everything got resolved years ago.

I didn't say that the game reached 75% completion status before the problems started. Neither did I say that the management wasn't paying attention to what was going on until the last minute. What I did say is that the basis that led to the problems was made by the developers, they conceived the core gameplay. Coming up with the basic gameplay doesn't bring a game to 75% completion status.

What's left is the question why are you standing up for these developers when they couldn't be bothered to tell Unseen64 about their ideas that got rejected. For all we know, all of their ideas sucked and wouldn't have saved the project either. There's simply not enough information to say that the developers are deserving of sympathy, especially because they had their chance to tell their side of the story, but didn't specify their ideas; why is that when their ideas were supposedly good? As it stands, this game got cancelled because of developers and management alike, and the gaming world didn't lose out on anything worth of value.



Legend11 correctly predicted that GTA IV (360+PS3) would outsell SSBB. I was wrong.

A Biased Review Reloaded / Open Your Eyes / Switch Gamers Club

Around the Network

Wow, that was an interesting read. I wonder how many other Western Nintendo games were cancelled for similar reasons? If they are more then its clearly a problem with the Japanese management, but if this is the only one, then maybe this game just wasn't good. 



    

NNID: FrequentFlyer54

burning_phoneix said:
gigaSheik said:

 

Rare was one of the hottest game devs under Nintendo, then they went to Microsoft and turned to shit?

 



Why some of you have to take shots at other companies to make Nintendo look better?

Nintendo is an amazing company, it doesn't need demise from others to look good.

Anyway, Rare was a hot studio even before Nintendo bought nearly half of their stock. They were technologically more advanced than any of the Nintendo studios, therefore they got Nintendo's interest.

Rare was a very secretive company, even sometimes to their publisher. Nintendo wouldn't know about the final games until they discussed the publishing terms. Just like when Nintendo refused to publish Conker in Europe because it was too controversial for them, so THQ had to do replace'em.

Goldeneye mp was made without Nintendo knowing of its development process.

Their biggest talents started to leave in 1997 during Perfect Dark conception.



oniyide said:
Samus Aran said:

And what about the games of Sony of Japan? Not so pretty huh.

Nintendo focuses on Japanese studios, Sony on Western.

actually it is pretty, the games they make are alright, but they dont have much appeal over here, so they dont get pushed over here as much, but im sure in there home country they are fine. Hell Hot Shots Golf is still popular people love that Tori cat thing, which is an exclusive mascot in Japan. ANd not to mention there European branch that made WIpeout(RIP) Killzones, LBPs that upcoming Horizon game. Naw bro SOny is ok in this department and even then one branch isnt imposing its will on another which is what this whole thing is about anyway.

What do European studios have to do with Sony of Japan? We're almost 2 years into the lifespan of the PS4 and how many great games have come out Sony of Japan? Just Knack? Ouch. Well, they also co-developed Bloodborne. So one bad game and one good game.

Compare that to Super Mario 3D World, Mario Kart 8, The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker HD, Pikmin 3, Super Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS, Splatoon, Yoshi's Woolly World, Captain Toad and Bayonetta 2.

And unlike Sony Nintendo actually supports their handheld with games that have mainstream appeal. If Sony of Japan can't make games with global appeal then that is their fault.

How long has it been since Team Ico even released a game? Yeah, I'm sure everything is alright at Sony of Japan...

Sony focuses on the West while Nintendo focuses on Japan. They do have some Western studios tied to them though: Retro Studios (one of their best studios), Next Level Games (good studio if we ignore that Metroid game they're making) and Monster Games (small studio, mostly works on ports these days, but they did co-develop Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze). Of course I'd like to see Nintendo expand to the West. I still don't understand why they haven't tied Armature Studios to them. Recore could've been a Wii U game (well not the exact same game, but A game). With the right guidance I'm sure they can make good games again. 

But I don't see the point in coming to a Nintendo thread to gloat that Sony is doing so much better. Yeah, in the West they have amazing studios, but their Japanese studios are vastly overshadowed. So they have a problem as well, whether you like it or not.

Unlike you I don't ignore that my favorite company has a big problem with Western studios. If they're willing they could make a lot of great games with Western studios though... Retro Studios is proof of that.



RolStoppable said:

Acting like a topic is deserving of elaborate discussion when there's actually not much to say about it is the definition of making a mountain out of a molehill. There isn't much to say here. A game got cancelled, some developers resigned, the studio went on to deliver solid work again. Everything got resolved years ago.

I didn't say that the game reached 75% completion status before the problems started. Neither did I say that the management wasn't paying attention to what was going on until the last minute. What I did say is that the basis that led to the problems was made by the developers, they conceived the core gameplay. Coming up with the basic gameplay doesn't bring a game to 75% completion status.

What's left is the question why are you standing up for these developers when they couldn't be bothered to tell Unseen64 about their ideas that got rejected. For all we know, all of their ideas sucked and wouldn't have saved the project either. There's simply not enough information to say that the developers are deserving of sympathy, especially because they had their chance to tell their side of the story, but didn't specify their ideas; why is that when their ideas were supposedly good? As it stands, this game got cancelled because of developers and management alike, and the gaming world didn't lose out on anything worth of value.

Simply because you don't want to talk about it doesn't mean it isn't an interesting topic.  Personally, I think the clash of ideas about how to improve the game and about how difficult development can be when you have management holding different design principles than those working below them are important factors to understand.  I really don't get why some people are bent out of shape over this.  Well, I guess I kind of know but that doesn't mean it makes sense to me.

I also never said the ideas the developers had would have made HAMMER into a good game--though the suggestion that they concentrate on improving the combat does seem better than working on more environmental interaction instead.  What I have been saying, since the very beginning, is that you aren't likely to end up with a good game in that kind of environment.  It was almost set up to fail.  The game itself is secondary to that discussion.

With many people on these forums saying that Nintendo needs more western studios, I would have thought this would have been met with more open-minded and practical interest.  I guess it's easier to just assume that the problem was the people who left and move on.

Which is what I'm going to do now, acutally.  The rest of this thread has turned into a cesspool.



burning_phoneix said:
gigaSheik said:

Nintendo is to blame?

 

You said it right there, nintendo managed to turn around Retro Studios, which was in shambles before Nintendo of Japan basically came in and cleaned house.

Nintendo treated Next Level Games so well that they stated they "We have worked with a lot of other companies before, and we're super happy with our relationship with Nintendo. There's no reason to look anywhere else. They keep giving us better and better IP to work with, and as long as we do our job and make good games for them there's no reason for us to venture out."

 

Rare was one of the hottest game devs under Nintendo, then they went to Microsoft and turned to shit?

 

If Nintendo can make three western devs under its belt produce excellent games and NST can't? Maybe NST were just not good enough?

 

pokoko said:
This is an amazing thread. We're seeing all the deny, deflect, and discredit reactions up close and personal. The best so far have been from people who didn't even watch the video, which always makes things fun. It's been a joy to witness.

Still, it's a shame that people try to bury the point beneath defensive rhetoric. There is a lot to learn from this and a lot that could be gained from honest discussion. I truly hope that NoA gained some insights from the results of their inquiry and that those results were passed along and given due consideration by upper Nintendo management. After all, they lost millions of dollars over this.



What's there to learn? This is basically layed off NST devs giving their side of the story. People with a vested interest in showing Nintendo in a bad light. There is no proof of any of these allegations. As I said above, Next Level Games is ecstatic to be working with Nintendo, Retro Studios was turned around by Nintendo...etc etc. Until we get Nintendo's side of the story, these are jsut accusations. Nothing else.



Plus considering how many devs have had nothing but praise for Nintendo with working for them, I have it awfully odd how some nobodies whine about how their game (which just wasn't any fun, as shown) was supposedly canceled for racism. Seriously, this is the very definition of bitter, whiny twits trying to make their critics look bad instead of fessing up to their lack of ability. There's really nothing more to discuss.