Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Microsoft looking into a new format for next generation xbox?

Great thread..and some really good informative posts..hats off to you guys I learned some stuff about formats today :D



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Seece said:
phinch1 said:
Seece said:
phinch1 said:
scat398 said:

It won't be costly at all as MS will use blu-ray.  Blu-ray was clearly not needed this gen and MS will make the appropriate move next gen to meet the needs of storage and development.


I'm pretty sure they might have to buy into blu ray, its not just as simple as saying they are going to use it next gen which leads me back to my point, it will be costly for them next gen

MS believe DD is the way to go, they'll simply use a beefed up HDDVD, as long as it play DVD's it's fine.


I don't believe DD is the way to go, Sony found out the hard way it doesnt do so well, and that's with small psp games, imagine the size of files for next gen games, I'd believe the gen after we would be ready for it, but not many countries have strong internet conections, yes main countries do, but if they want strong WW sales they will have to wait for DD i believe

Doesn't matter what you and I think, it'll be Microsoft's call, and they have more of an idea on this than you and I.

If they wen't DD they woud severley limit there market to countries of wealth, no one would want to download a 30gb game, it would take hours on an average internet conection in the UK not to mention people with limited monthly download sizes, Sony already made a costly experiment with this and others should learn from it

it took me 55 mins to download FF7 of the PSN on a 10mb connection which is about 1.67gb.....30gb would just be madness, on some of the highest internet speed in the world with 50mb it would take nearly 3 hours.



trasharmdsister12 said:

osamanobama said:

1. im not saying your wrong, not in the slightest, but im still confused.

2. if it is just a matter of Storage, why is the max resolution of Blu-ray 1080p.

3. doesnt it also have to do with speed, or bit rate or what ever (im not a very technical person so i dont know much about thi stuff)

1. No worries. I'll try my best to keep the discussion non-technical and try to explain the technical bits in an easy to understand manner.

2.  The 1080p resolution is just a standard. Pretty much the industry got together and decided that that was a sweet spot based on where TV technology (and prices) were heading, how much storage (and how costly) it was going to be, etc. It's just a standard resolution. If the industry wanted they could store (less) higher resolution content on a Blu Ray disc but they have the standard so that all the TV's, Blu Ray players, etc. are compatible with one set of rules. I'm trying to think of a standard in a non-tech realm... hmm... How about the beverage industry. There's a standard can size for soft drinks. Sure somsone could make a bizarre triangle based prism as their can but the standard around the industry utilizes the cylindrical base, which is why cup holders are cylindrical and vending machines are designed to dispense such a form factor.

3.  Yes, bit rate is also a concern of playback. Pretty much you can't put more cars on a highway than there is road on the highway... unless you mean to create disaster. I'll speak more on this below when I comment on the Wikipedia stuff but they've (the movie industry) pretty much created a standard top bit-rate for audio/video on DVD movies so that all DVD players can play all the content.

And now I'm pretty much going to repeat what I just said for the Wikipedia stuff

As for what Wikipedia had to say, it's simply listing best practices and standards of audio/video (content) quality on DVD's (medium) for the movie industry in order to maintain mass compatibility. These standards are huge in the movie industry so any dvd (or blu ray which has its own set of movie industry standards in terms of max bit-rate/resolution) player can play all the content that it is meant to play with no problems. These playback devices are highly specialized and designed to perform certain tasks very efficiently (and the standardization also makes them cheap to build as parts are made in bulk to perform these tasks). A game console doesn't have to follow these same restrictions and guidelines for audio/video in the context of a game. So the video/audio quality of cutscenes in games don't follow these guidelines as they aren't being played back by any random home DVD player.

i just realized i still dont understand the benefit of faster bitrate and such. does bluray have a higher theroretical bitrate, what does that mean for its visual quality.

which brings me to my next point.

cnet.com had a recent article about different 3D tech, and they said that bluray is the only way right now to get full 1080p/24 3D (i know no ps3 game can do this). as it has a much higher bandwidth than broadcast TV, and i assume DVD. So it can do framepacking 3d (2 frames stacked on top of each other, each at 1080p/24). while broadcast Tv does either side by side or top and bottom 3D, which severly cuts down the resolution.

So i was wondering, with the recent rumors of xbox having an update to be able to finaly do true stereo-scopic 3D.  how will it be able to do framepacking 3D, like the PS3 can (though obviously its not 1080p) due not only to bluray, but also due to it higher bandwidth HDMI 1.3b port. xbox uses DVD and HDMI 1.2. so can DVD do framepacking, does HDMI 1.2 even allow for that.

if DVD can do it, why have there been framepacking, stereoscopic 3d for DvD(as far as i know).



Sony has projected the lifespan of the BluRay to be ten years. The DVD did a little better, but media format development has increased in the last decade. With many companies vying to produce the next disc format, and frankly probably the last disc format. Once you get into terabytes of storage there just isn't going to be a demand for anything bigger. That is more then sufficient to store entire movie, game, and music libraries onto a single disc.

Right now we are coming into the territory of holographic media. Which should be fully backward compatible with all of the previous formats. Given that Microsoft has spurned BluRay it is probably likely that they are already involved in one or more joint ventures to implement one of these formats. Probably with General Electric which intends to release their new format in 2013. Microsoft probably intends to jump the current format generation entirely. Which would allow them to have a very obvious hardware advantage, and to seriously pressure the BluRay format.

Microsoft seems rather earnest in not supporting BluRay, and has actively searched for alternatives. Supporting a newer format seems to serve their interests. Not only that, but full backward compatibility would mean that they wouldn't have to make a actual choice. It is easier to support a legacy, because it isn't a validation. Supporting old or outdated formats is to be expected.

So yeah the NextBox will probably play BluRay movies, but it probably will not be using a BluRay drive, and there is just no reason to expect that such a drive would become obsolete for decades. Well until something supercedes television as the conveyance.



phinch1 said:
Lostplanet22 said:
phinch1 said:
scat398 said:

It won't be costly at all as MS will use blu-ray.  Blu-ray was clearly not needed this gen and MS will make the appropriate move next gen to meet the needs of storage and development.


I'm pretty sure they might have to buy into blu ray, its not just as simple as saying they are going to use it next gen which leads me back to my point, it will be costly for them next gen

Thought most PC's have blu Ray by now? So would be no biggy if MS has to use it for the nextbox.

pc's arent made by microsoft, just the operating system is windows,which isnt always the case people opt for linux and mac over windows

I don't think that was his point he was getting at. He is saying that even if MS went to Blu-Ray that it wouldn't cost that much for them to do so. But like other people are saying i just see them making a beefed up HD DVD where it has like 40-50 GB



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Well, my belief is that Microsoft should've choosed to support Toshiba's HD-DVD in the first place, insted of DVD9, unlike PS1, PS2 360 Has had games with more than 1 DISC time & time again (Star Ocean,Final Fantasy,LA Noire,Forza 3,Lost Odessy,Blue Dragon.....ETC),

For anti-Piracy reasons using HD-DVD would've worked much better, Kept the Movie competition alive, specialy the way 360 was built, It's Obvious it was built to last 7-10 years (Unlike a PC, Microsoft didn't think with Pc in mind), anyway next gen till now have one option and that's Blue-Ray & I believe Microsoft have a hand in Sony's win (They didn't wish for it that's for sure), so they will be forced to go that way now, till something new comes-up maybe then they will learn from the past mistake.



Dodece said:

Sony has projected the lifespan of the BluRay to be ten years. The DVD did a little better, but media format development has increased in the last decade. With many companies vying to produce the next disc format, and frankly probably the last disc format. Once you get into terabytes of storage there just isn't going to be a demand for anything bigger. That is more then sufficient to store entire movie, game, and music libraries onto a single disc.

Right now we are coming into the territory of holographic media. Which should be fully backward compatible with all of the previous formats. Given that Microsoft has spurned BluRay it is probably likely that they are already involved in one or more joint ventures to implement one of these formats. Probably with General Electric which intends to release their new format in 2013. Microsoft probably intends to jump the current format generation entirely. Which would allow them to have a very obvious hardware advantage, and to seriously pressure the BluRay format.

Microsoft seems rather earnest in not supporting BluRay, and has actively searched for alternatives. Supporting a newer format seems to serve their interests. Not only that, but full backward compatibility would mean that they wouldn't have to make a actual choice. It is easier to support a legacy, because it isn't a validation. Supporting old or outdated formats is to be expected.

So yeah the NextBox will probably play BluRay movies, but it probably will not be using a BluRay drive, and there is just no reason to expect that such a drive would become obsolete for decades. Well until something supercedes television as the conveyance.

There is going to be several things going against HVDs, though.  One, because of the tech it uses, the laser is incompatible with older disc formats.  This means that any player will require multiple lasers, which increases the costs.  Two, initial costs for players are estimated to be ~$15,000, with discs costing ~$120.  If MS were to use this in their next Xbox, they would be losing A LOT just to stay competively priced with the PS4.  And finally, and most importantly, there is...

Blu-ray.  Sony's estimate of the 10 years was the MINIMUM life expectancy for Blu-ray.  People have just started to get in on the HD "craze."  By mid-2010, 65% of US homes had at least 1 HDTV and I'm sure that number is at least 70-75% by now.  Blu-ray sales continue to increase, while not yet claiming 50% of physical movie sales.  This is partly due to Blu-ray being BC with DVD.  But as prices continue to drop, people will want to have something that takes advantage of those HDTVs.  So by 2013, Blu-ray will be getting closer and closer to passing DVD in marketshare, if it hasn't already by then.  Point being, people won't see HVDs as neccessary or be willing to switch so quickly when they have just started to buy into Blu-ray.  Not many companies will be willing to support it in 2013, either.  These above reasons are why many companies, including Sony, aren't even thinking of bringing out a HVD player until 2019/2020.

@ OP

The only real option MS has is to buy into Blu-ray.  Yes they will have to pay to license the tech, thus giving Sony and others a small income from them, but it will be much cheaper than creating their own format and setting up factories to produce those discs.  Plus, if they are going to try and be a media center (and let's face it, only Nintendo gets away with not being one) then they will have to have the lastest tech for HD movies, or otherwise seem behind the times.  I'm guessing not giving Sony, one of their main competitors in the video game field, any money, regardless of how small it would end up being, is the reason they have always opted out of the BDA up to this point.



There is absolutely no need for M$ to use Blue-ray.  M$ can use their own proprietary format for games.  A modification of the HD-DVD could easily do the trick. 

The next-gen M$ console has no need to double as a blue-ray player since streaming technology is now the preferred way of watching movies and entertainment.  Microsoft is investing a lot of money to enchance the entertainment hub of X-box Live.  The next-gen will have some VERY capable online movie libraries.  M$ gets absolutely NOTHING out of their customers watching blue-rays.  They would much rather make money from online rentals, then support an unneeded blue-ray drive. 

Blue-ray drive is antiquated technology that will never achieve the heights that DVD did.  Online streaming is way of the future-- Netflix is already the biggest source of Internet traffic in the US.  So, I will repeat my point one more time:  there is absolutely no advantage for M$ to use blueray. 



 

Most anticipated games of 2011:

Uncharted 3,Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword, Rocksmith

Modern Warfare 3, Super Mario 3D

 

HVD is the way to go. BluRay is so 2009.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc

6TB storage on a disc. GG NO RE.

 

:D

Seriously: I can see them using BluRay, but it won't be a big deal. A BluRay will be near the 50 Cent mark for production and it already uses MS software. I doubt they will be paying much and Sony will get even less. Of course fanboys will make this look like an awesome cash-cow for sony, but it is not.



There once was a great sig here, but it got killed.

A moment of silence would be appreciated.

I thought Microsoft already invented a new format.

 

called HD-DVD??? ;)

 

just go with Blu-Ray and make everyone happy, no need to buy another blu-ray playing if you want to go xbox720 only



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