Forums - Sony Discussion - Sony: Xbox 720 and Wii 2 will beat PS4 to market

Toddifer said:

I think Sony's in a real tricky position overall. The PSP is as good as dead in the water at this point, and with the 3DS releasing, their portable business is in serious trouble (especially since they haven't announced anything regarding the PSP), and the PS3, while selling respectably now, lost Sony soooo much money that they can't afford to cut it off early, but at the same time they can't afford to launch too far behind MS and Nintendo with new consoles....unless MS and Nintendo's new hardware aren't huge leaps but instead minor upgrades/tweaks to what is already out there...but I'm pretty sure Nintendo's going to do a pretty massive overhaul with the visuals/capabilities of the Wii for the Wii2, especially if the 3DS launch proves successful in courting a 'hardcore' software audience...it will make 3rd parties more excited to develop for Wii2...


Its pointless releasing anything which isn't leaps and bounds ahead of what is currently on the market. People simply will not respond favourably to a console which cannot produce more than a slightly prettier version of what is out there.

From what Nintendo has stated in the past their new console will be much more than just a technical leap over the current generation of console technology, they will also need to improve the basic gameplay. So obviously the Wiimote is the first step and it will be the controller itself which recieves the most work. Third parties will already be excited at the concept of working on the Wii 2, becuase they will rightfully assume it will be the leader in the next generation of consoles and thus will not want to be left behind.



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WilliamWatts said:
Toddifer said:

I think Sony's in a real tricky position overall. The PSP is as good as dead in the water at this point, and with the 3DS releasing, their portable business is in serious trouble (especially since they haven't announced anything regarding the PSP), and the PS3, while selling respectably now, lost Sony soooo much money that they can't afford to cut it off early, but at the same time they can't afford to launch too far behind MS and Nintendo with new consoles....unless MS and Nintendo's new hardware aren't huge leaps but instead minor upgrades/tweaks to what is already out there...but I'm pretty sure Nintendo's going to do a pretty massive overhaul with the visuals/capabilities of the Wii for the Wii2, especially if the 3DS launch proves successful in courting a 'hardcore' software audience...it will make 3rd parties more excited to develop for Wii2...


Its pointless releasing anything which isn't leaps and bounds ahead of what is currently on the market. People simply will not respond favourably to a console which cannot produce more than a slightly prettier version of what is out there.

From what Nintendo has stated in the past their new console will be much more than just a technical leap over the current generation of console technology, they will also need to improve the basic gameplay. So obviously the Wiimote is the first step and it will be the controller itself which recieves the most work. Third parties will already be excited at the concept of working on the Wii 2, becuase they will rightfully assume it will be the leader in the next generation of consoles and thus will not want to be left behind.

they can change their stance anytime

and Nintendo's minor upgrade says it can happen anytime and people buy it



Solid_Snake4RD said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
Solid_Snake4RD said:

Alby_da_Wolf said:

A rough calculation is easy: releasing next year they could sell a console twice as powerful as the current one for $300 with around the same margin they have now. But if they want to offer 1440p (and that not be just a 1080p upscaled), they need a console twice as powerful just for this, then they need to furtherly double it if they want to offer 3D up to max res. So they need to release consoles 4 times as powerful as the current ones,

1) PS3 can do full 1080p 3D

[...]

About graphics, 1GB RAM is currently already common also on cheap cards, so no need to go below it.

2) the graphic RAM doesn't need to be there,they can do a unified RAM

and SONY could even remove the GRaphic and do 2 CELL as it does a pretty good job

also what is the speed of the upcoming SSD's,can that be used for RAM?

1) With the same polygon count as 2D? (meaning having to calculate twice as much polygons, not just pixels).

PS3 can do 2160p 2D so they can do 1080p 3D

2) Cheaper but slower, and not necessary now that RAM is so cheap.

WHICH line was this for (*)



(*) Answer #2 was for the bolded part.

About part #1 I didn't know, good, this means that if absolutely needed Sony could launch an early PS4 roughly 2 times as powerful as PS3 without losing money, very good.

About doing graphics with a second Cell, I guess it can be done, but a specialized GPU, good only for its work, could do the same work for less money. Maybe dropping NVidia and chosing ATI instead. Cell SPEs will help graphics and physics more and more with time anyway, as dev tools evolve, and programmers' experience increase.

About SSD, they can provide a swap file enormously faster than electromechanical magnetic drives, but they are too many steps behind dynamic RAM, particularly for writing. Life of the drive is another issue, even if less than in the past, writes still shorten flash memories' life, using them for SSD writes can be managed quite well to reduce the problem, using them instead of RAM the problem would be very serious, as writes to RAM are in numbers several orders of magnitude larger than writes to disk.



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


Alby_da_Wolf said:
Solid_Snake4RD said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
Solid_Snake4RD said:

Alby_da_Wolf said:

A rough calculation is easy: releasing next year they could sell a console twice as powerful as the current one for $300 with around the same margin they have now. But if they want to offer 1440p (and that not be just a 1080p upscaled), they need a console twice as powerful just for this, then they need to furtherly double it if they want to offer 3D up to max res. So they need to release consoles 4 times as powerful as the current ones,

1) PS3 can do full 1080p 3D

[...]

About graphics, 1GB RAM is currently already common also on cheap cards, so no need to go below it.

2) the graphic RAM doesn't need to be there,they can do a unified RAM

and SONY could even remove the GRaphic and do 2 CELL as it does a pretty good job

also what is the speed of the upcoming SSD's,can that be used for RAM?

1) With the same polygon count as 2D? (meaning having to calculate twice as much polygons, not just pixels).

PS3 can do 2160p 2D so they can do 1080p 3D

2) Cheaper but slower, and not necessary now that RAM is so cheap.

WHICH line was this for (*)



(*) Answer #2 was for the bolded part.

but what is cheaper,slower and not necessary?

About part #1 I didn't know, good, this means that if absolutely needed Sony could launch an early PS4 roughly 2 times as powerful as PS3 without losing money, very good.

they will still lose a bit as they do always as they try to bring the new tech in.but it will be recouped in the first year itself

About doing graphics with a second Cell, I guess it can be done, but a specialized GPU, good only for its work, could do the same work for less money.

yes but it has the limitatiosn,if you have CELL alone then you use it for anything and optimize itself not to deal with two things and getting them to work with each other

Maybe dropping NVidia and chosing ATI instead.

that really doesn't matter as the deals that happen are wholesale kind so they would get any more cheap with ATI

Cell SPEs will help graphics and physics more and more with time anyway, as dev tools evolve, and programmers' experience increase.

yes and with 2 CELL their is unlimited power.you can just go on and on and don't have to worry about the limitations of the other parts

About SSD, they can provide a swap file enormously faster than electromechanical magnetic drives, but they are too many steps behind dynamic RAM, particularly for writing. Life of the drive is another issue, even if less than in the past, writes still shorten flash memories' life, using them for SSD writes can be managed quite well to reduce the problem, using them instead of RAM the problem would be very serious, as writes to RAM are in numbers several orders of magnitude larger than writes to disk.

i thought so it would be the problem

i was just thinking if it could do it then the SSD drive space could be used and so ddevelopes would have unlimited power as SSD's would be provided with each console



Solid_Snake4RD said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
Solid_Snake4RD said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
Solid_Snake4RD said:

Alby_da_Wolf said:

A rough calculation is easy: releasing next year they could sell a console twice as powerful as the current one for $300 with around the same margin they have now. But if they want to offer 1440p (and that not be just a 1080p upscaled), they need a console twice as powerful just for this, then they need to furtherly double it if they want to offer 3D up to max res. So they need to release consoles 4 times as powerful as the current ones,

1) PS3 can do full 1080p 3D

[...]

About graphics, 1GB RAM is currently already common also on cheap cards, so no need to go below it.

2) the graphic RAM doesn't need to be there,they can do a unified RAM

and SONY could even remove the GRaphic and do 2 CELL as it does a pretty good job

also what is the speed of the upcoming SSD's,can that be used for RAM?

1) With the same polygon count as 2D? (meaning having to calculate twice as much polygons, not just pixels).

PS3 can do 2160p 2D so they can do 1080p 3D

2) Cheaper but slower, and not necessary now that RAM is so cheap.

WHICH line was this for (*)



(*) Answer #2 was for the bolded part.

but what is cheaper,slower and not necessary? (**)

About part #1 I didn't know, good, this means that if absolutely needed Sony could launch an early PS4 roughly 2 times as powerful as PS3 without losing money, very good.

they will still lose a bit as they do always as they try to bring the new tech in.but it will be recouped in the first year itself

About doing graphics with a second Cell, I guess it can be done, but a specialized GPU, good only for its work, could do the same work for less money.

yes but it has the limitatiosn,if you have CELL alone then you use it for anything and optimize itself not to deal with two things and getting them to work with each other (***)

Maybe dropping NVidia and chosing ATI instead.

that really doesn't matter as the deals that happen are wholesale kind so they would get any more cheap with ATI

Cell SPEs will help graphics and physics more and more with time anyway, as dev tools evolve, and programmers' experience increase.

yes and with 2 CELL their is unlimited power.you can just go on and on and don't have to worry about the limitations of the other parts

About SSD, they can provide a swap file enormously faster than electromechanical magnetic drives, but they are too many steps behind dynamic RAM, particularly for writing. Life of the drive is another issue, even if less than in the past, writes still shorten flash memories' life, using them for SSD writes can be managed quite well to reduce the problem, using them instead of RAM the problem would be very serious, as writes to RAM are in numbers several orders of magnitude larger than writes to disk.

i thought so it would be the problem

i was just thinking if it could do it then the SSD drive space could be used and so ddevelopes would have unlimited power as SSD's would be provided with each console (****)

(**) Unified memory architecture. At least up until now, maybe it's possible to design a UMA not cheap, but separed memories makes sense, as the graphics part is an activity that has long become parallelizable, so it enjoys advantages from having its reserved RAM (not necessarily all the memory it uses, but at least for framebuffers, texture caches and other caches, dedicated memory works faster).

(***) A separed GPU is an already established design, most problems are already solved, moreover all the dev tools for PS3 are already designed for this kind of design, starting again from scratch would nullify a legacy of development and refinement of dev tools and programming experience that PS4 could receive from PS3. And GPUs enjoy dedicated research and development for their sole purposes, it's an advantage hardly beatable. But nothing forbids adopting a cheap GPU that be as fast as possible, for the budget available for it, on all the best optimized and longest established operations and assigning some graphics features to the Cell's SPEs.

(****) As soon as SSD becomes cheap and reliable enough, it will be a great help also for consoles, but RAM evolves as fast, so it will always be some steps beyond. This said, with SSD drives, installed games will load enormously faster than from optical disc and they'll run more smoothly too when game worlds larger than what manageable by the RAM equipped will be involved.



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW!