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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Why is FF7's shocking moment considered the most shocking *spoilers*

twesterm on 17 December 2009
swyggi said:
FFVI's take on emotional direction is more like the second bus example above. Rather than just relying on your being so attached to your characters and then shoving death in your face, they just do so much more to tug on those heart strings. You say all the emotional parts are wasted in the first half of the game, and while I agree the first half is better, the second half is where you learn so much more about the characters and really get into some deep emotional themes.


Ultimately, our argument is preference specific, and I'm guessing this is your preference:

You prefer everything to happen in the moment and getting attached to a character during that moment. Is this right for you?

As opposed to building on interactions and getting attached to a character before a big moment happens?

I prefer both tbh, just the latter more so.

No...I think you have those backwards, especially in the FF situations we're talking about.

FFVI is all about the interactions while FFVII is in the moment.



 

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swyggi on 17 December 2009
twesterm said:
swyggi said:
twesterm said:
swyggi said:
 

I've played FFVI several times over.

 

To sympathize on a relative human level (ex: car crash victims, burnt victims, etc) you don't need to be too attached, but to really feel for a character on a personal level you do need those interactions and it is ESSENTIAL that you know the character well before then.

Would you break down and cry for a woman you just recently met whom died a day later? 

 

Good writing involves great interaction.  FFVI has a lot of good moments, but their executions relative to what we already feel from the current cast leaves a lot to be desired.  FFVII filled that gap with a lot of unique, good moments combined with a huge depth of dialougue.  

 

BTW, can you explain to me why you feel for that train scene?  It's unique, I'll give it that, but I only have relative sympathy for Cyan at that moment.  It's not just the moments themselves either, there are several elements needed for any moment to have impact.  And Cyan is the most important element in that moment.  With him being focused on, it loses it's attachment.  It's not incredible, it's just unique: like so many FF events.

1. For the train scene, just follow the link I did above.  That's so much better written than I could tell you.

And if I saw a woman die on the streets, yes, I would be sad depending on the circumstances I could break down and cry.

If she were just randomly hit by a bus, I would think well that's a shame and be upset a saw someone hit by a bus but I don't think I would cry.

2.If I saw the same woman hit by a bus and then as soon as the bus finished whizzing by I saw her young kid screaming in agony at the sight of her mother being brutally killed in front of their eyes, I would be devastated even though I know nothing about that woman.

3. FFVII's emotional scenes try to work on just shoving the emotion in your face and expecting it to work.  The direction in FFVII is equivalent to Michael Bay.  He gets the job done but there's no subtlety, it's all just right in your face.  It's the lowest form of emotional writing and while it gets the job done there's just so much more better.

1.I've seen the scene more than enough times.

2. I said the woman died a day later though, you didn't see her die nor do you know the causes.  I guess you could say you were only told the news of her death.

3. A lot of important events and interactions aren't just shoved in your face though.  You have to pay attention much harder in FF7 to understand all of the connections and impact that goes with those connections : Ex: Vincent was in love with Lucrecia, but Hojo is too and nearly kills and reconstructs Vincent.  Sephiroth is born from Hojo and Lucrecia, wow Vincent was almost the father of Sephiroth!  But that plot point is never shoved in your face.  Vincent was a former turk and you are fighting against the turks.  But Vincent joins you to settle with Hojo and now you and Vincent have a common goal against Hojo. But there's even more! Aerith's Father: Professor Gast was killed by Hojo and you don't find this out until after Aeris dies.  

This right here is a prime example of subtle revenge for two characters. Hojo isn't heavliy implied throughout FF7 as a true threat or enemy, but if you look hard enough you realize that he could potentially be the true villain.    

 

 

1. You asked me why, I pointed you to the description.

2. Fine, the woman doesn't die.  Lets just say she's hit by a bus and the kid still screams "mommy" in a blood curdling pitch. 

Or are you just trying to say that reading about a death in a newspaper has no emotions attached like an obituary or random news story?  Then yes, I agree with that but that's hardly the situation we're talking about.

3. That's really just a side story, that doesn't mean it's fully of emtion (it may or may not be) and that's not really what we're talkign about.  I know FFVII has those.

(and just for the record, even Michael Bay movies have side stories just to show that just because a character has a background doesn't mean it's automatically emotional)

The connections that side story portrays is intertwined with the main plot though.  It gets involved with some of the character's interactions and ulitmately explains the impact that some of FF7's emotional scenes have.  It also has a connection with Cloud as he was tested on by Hojo and explains why he goes through radical changes later in the game: or rather, a return to form.

  You were asking for emotional subtleties.  That's why I included that side story, because you have to dig deep to find it, it's connections and it's impact.  It's impact of course is the subtlety; because when you realize the emotional impact it has, it's not in your face.

 



This will only take a moment of your time. *steals your watch*

twesterm on 17 December 2009
swyggi said:
twesterm said:

1. You asked me why, I pointed you to the description.

2. Fine, the woman doesn't die.  Lets just say she's hit by a bus and the kid still screams "mommy" in a blood curdling pitch. 

Or are you just trying to say that reading about a death in a newspaper has no emotions attached like an obituary or random news story?  Then yes, I agree with that but that's hardly the situation we're talking about.

3. That's really just a side story, that doesn't mean it's fully of emtion (it may or may not be) and that's not really what we're talkign about.  I know FFVII has those.

(and just for the record, even Michael Bay movies have side stories just to show that just because a character has a background doesn't mean it's automatically emotional)

The connections that side story portrays is intertwined with the main plot though.  It gets involved with some of the character's interactions and ulitmately explains the impact that some of FF7's emotional scenes have.  It also has a connection with Cloud as he was tested on by Hojo and explains why he goes through radical changes later in the game: or rather, a return to form.

  You were asking for emotional subtleties.  That's why I included that side story, because you have to dig deep to find it, it's connections and it's impact.  It's impact of course is the subtlety; because when you realize the emotional impact it has, it's not in your face.

 

I get what you're saying and I'm not saying that the side story and subtlety there doesn't help, it doesn't really help much. 

I guess would you like me to say it's a small step above Michael Bay or would you rather me say that the Michael Bay type emotional moments outclass the games subtlety because the games subtlety isn't that powerful?

...

That could have been a little harsh above or a little too one-sided, whatever, I'm not saying FFVII is bad by any means, I'm just saying the emotional impact scenes it has don't require a lot of thought and they are very much just two dimensional for the most part.

Those flat scenes like Aeris dying and Sephiroth burning the village work and work well for what they are and just like people love them some Megan Fox and Transformer's movies people love those scenes, but you just can't deny there are other games that do a much better job.

Those people that love Megan Fox and Transformer's movies can continue to be oblivious or insist that giant explosions and someone looking down at Earth for the last time as he destroys a comet are better than someone crying over a red fern and that's their opinion.  I'm just going to continue to think they're wrong. 



 

Acevil on 17 December 2009

To answer the op, as much as people will deny it. Final Fantasy VII was their first final fantasy and they felt connected to characters who portray some of the subcultures they were in ...(Blah blah blah, huge paragraph later)... In conclusion: Mainstream audience of just about 10 million made the game popular and the silly moments popular.

Personally I was like meh useless character gone, now if only we can get rid of Cait Sith and focus on the Turks.



 

Yojimbo on 17 December 2009

The Aeris scene is one of the most memorable scenes in a game for me. I have finished FF 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,12 and played the rest of the games, but few scenes in the serie come close to that one. If I remember correctly FFIV is the game that has most death of characters it did feel little out of place but still the twins death is more memorable then Cyans family in FFVI. Its hard to explain but I felt more connection with Aeris because I had her in my party all the time and I was not expecting that you would lose her. But still its hard for SE to mantain the freshness of the serie I dont think another death of important character would suprise me.



 
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swyggi on 17 December 2009
twesterm said:
swyggi said:
FFVI's take on emotional direction is more like the second bus example above. Rather than just relying on your being so attached to your characters and then shoving death in your face, they just do so much more to tug on those heart strings. You say all the emotional parts are wasted in the first half of the game, and while I agree the first half is better, the second half is where you learn so much more about the characters and really get into some deep emotional themes.


Ultimately, our argument is preference specific, and I'm guessing this is your preference:

You prefer everything to happen in the moment and getting attached to a character during that moment. Is this right for you?

As opposed to building on interactions and getting attached to a character before a big moment happens?

I prefer both tbh, just the latter more so.

No...I think you have those backwards, especially in the FF situations we're talking about.

FFVI is all about the interactions while FFVII is in the moment.

How in the world do I have that backwards?

You said you found the phantom train incident incredibly moving.  There's hardly any interactions that lead up to that during the camp and poisoning of Doma involving Cyan.  His family dies, but we just met him.  We don't know much about him, nor is he related to the other characters the game has built some interactions with.

 

Living in the moment is based around not knowing much of a moment when that moment happens.  



This will only take a moment of your time. *steals your watch*

twesterm on 17 December 2009
Yojimbo said:
The Aeris scene is one of the most memorable scenes in a game for me. I have finished FF 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,12 and played the rest of the games, but few scenes in the serie come close to that one. If I remember correctly FFIV is the game that has most death of characters it did feel little out of place but still the twins death is more memorable then Cyans family in FFVI. Its hard to explain but I felt more connection with Aeris because I had her in my party all the time and I was not expecting that you would lose her. But still its hard for SE to mantain the freshness of the serie I dont think another death of important character would suprise me.

The problem with the deaths in FFIV is they kept coming back and just took away from those scenes and made me feel cheated for feeling those emotions.

  • Rydia-- her return was *awesome* and that one didn't feel cheap since she came back in an epic way.
  • Edward-- I didn't like Edward to begin with...
  • Yang-- cheap, he died, he sacrificed himself and he just *pops* comes back.
  • Cid-- still cheap, but at least we found out pretty quick he didn't actually die
  • Palom & Porom-- their scene was so awesome and so sad...and then at the end of the game they're back.  It just made their "death" feel so cheap and I just felt cheated for all those emotions I felt.
  • Tellah-- not as bad as Palom and Poram and I understand why he was there at the end, but I almost didn't want to hear from him again.


 

Son1x on 17 December 2009
twesterm said:
Yojimbo said:
The Aeris scene is one of the most memorable scenes in a game for me. I have finished FF 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,12 and played the rest of the games, but few scenes in the serie come close to that one. If I remember correctly FFIV is the game that has most death of characters it did feel little out of place but still the twins death is more memorable then Cyans family in FFVI. Its hard to explain but I felt more connection with Aeris because I had her in my party all the time and I was not expecting that you would lose her. But still its hard for SE to mantain the freshness of the serie I dont think another death of important character would suprise me.

The problem with the deaths in FFIV is they kept coming back and just took away from those scenes and made me feel cheated for feeling those emotions.

  • Rydia-- her return was *awesome* and that one didn't feel cheap since she came back in an epic way.
  • Edward-- I didn't like Edward to begin with...
  • Yang-- cheap, he died, he sacrificed himself and he just *pops* comes back.
  • Cid-- still cheap, but at least we found out pretty quick he didn't actually die
  • Palom & Porom-- their scene was so awesome and so sad...and then at the end of the game they're back.  It just made their "death" feel so cheap and I just felt cheated for all those emotions I felt.
  • Tellah-- not as bad as Palom and Poram and I understand why he was there at the end, but I almost didn't want to hear from him again.

You might want to hide that. OP said he is still playing FF IV and doesn't want to be spoiled.



"And yet, I've realized that maybe living a "decent" life means you won't ever have a "good" life."

 

Khuutra on 17 December 2009
twesterm said:
Yojimbo said:
The Aeris scene is one of the most memorable scenes in a game for me. I have finished FF 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,12 and played the rest of the games, but few scenes in the serie come close to that one. If I remember correctly FFIV is the game that has most death of characters it did feel little out of place but still the twins death is more memorable then Cyans family in FFVI. Its hard to explain but I felt more connection with Aeris because I had her in my party all the time and I was not expecting that you would lose her. But still its hard for SE to mantain the freshness of the serie I dont think another death of important character would suprise me.

The problem with the deaths in FFIV is they kept coming back and just took away from those scenes and made me feel cheated for feeling those emotions.

  • Rydia-- her return was *awesome* and that one didn't feel cheap since she came back in an epic way.
  • Edward-- I didn't like Edward to begin with...
  • Yang-- cheap, he died, he sacrificed himself and he just *pops* comes back.
  • Cid-- still cheap, but at least we found out pretty quick he didn't actually die
  • Palom & Porom-- their scene was so awesome and so sad...and then at the end of the game they're back.  It just made their "death" feel so cheap and I just felt cheated for all those emotions I felt.
  • Tellah-- not as bad as Palom and Poram and I understand why he was there at the end, but I almost didn't want to hear from him again.

You find Yang being cared for in the Sylph Cave.

And Tellah's still actually dead, in fairness.



swyggi on 17 December 2009
twesterm said:
swyggi said:
twesterm said:
 

1. You asked me why, I pointed you to the description.

2. Fine, the woman doesn't die.  Lets just say she's hit by a bus and the kid still screams "mommy" in a blood curdling pitch. 

Or are you just trying to say that reading about a death in a newspaper has no emotions attached like an obituary or random news story?  Then yes, I agree with that but that's hardly the situation we're talking about.

3. That's really just a side story, that doesn't mean it's fully of emtion (it may or may not be) and that's not really what we're talkign about.  I know FFVII has those.

(and just for the record, even Michael Bay movies have side stories just to show that just because a character has a background doesn't mean it's automatically emotional)

The connections that side story portrays is intertwined with the main plot though.  It gets involved with some of the character's interactions and ulitmately explains the impact that some of FF7's emotional scenes have.  It also has a connection with Cloud as he was tested on by Hojo and explains why he goes through radical changes later in the game: or rather, a return to form.

  You were asking for emotional subtleties.  That's why I included that side story, because you have to dig deep to find it, it's connections and it's impact.  It's impact of course is the subtlety; because when you realize the emotional impact it has, it's not in your face.

 

I get what you're saying and I'm not saying that the side story and subtlety there doesn't help, it doesn't really help much. 

I guess would you like me to say it's a small step above Michael Bay or would you rather me say that the Michael Bay type emotional moments outclass the games subtlety because the games subtlety isn't that powerful?

...

That could have been a little harsh above or a little too one-sided, whatever, I'm not saying FFVII is bad by any means, I'm just saying the emotional impact scenes it has don't require a lot of thought and they are very much just two dimensional for the most part.

Those flat scenes like Aeris dying and Sephiroth burning the village work and work well for what they are and just like people love them some Megan Fox and Transformer's movies people love those scenes, but you just can't deny there are other games that do a much better job.

Those people that love Megan Fox and Transformer's movies can continue to be oblivious or insist that giant explosions and someone looking down at Earth for the last time as he destroys a comet are better than someone crying over a red fern and that's their opinion.  I'm just going to continue to think they're wrong. 

Actually there's been something I needed to clear for a while with you, Twestern.  Forget my last post.  I've been irritated with you and others as well for a long time on this website.  But since you finally acknowledged that it's your opinion (of course it's your opinion) I want to hug you.  

  Acknowledging that it is your opinion is one of the kindest acts anyone can do to prevent any flame wars,  even though we were both civilized.  But since you did acknowledge it *hugs you*

 

I edited board to website. <_<



This will only take a moment of your time. *steals your watch*