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IBM continues Cell development

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joeorc said:
jetrii said:
joeorc said:
jetrii said:
The current Cell processor design is pretty much dead. SPEs do not make sense anymore and IBM knows this. The new generation of Cell processors will be a few Power7 cores that manage a few thousand stream processors. Even if they call it "Cell", it is a completely different architecture. Granted, it will definitely borrow a few technologies from the current cell, but it will simply be a different processor with the same name.

This those effect the PS4, as it means that backwards compatibility is pretty much dead. If developers thought that porting games to the cell processor was bad, they are going to struggle even more with stream processors. Emulating a Cell with stream processors + a few cores is not hard, but it requires more power than will be available in the next generation of consoles.

lol..

no its not! dead, god!

you are making my head hurt..you do know that the Cell Processor 

"is a streaming processor"

as a matter of fact "the cell is a stream processor with embedded ram on the die"

talk about taking a new's scoop and blowing it way out of proportion.

 

You have no idea what you are talking about. The Cell processor can be used to stream process data, but it is not a stream processor in the OpenCL context. They sound the same, but there are distinctions. Lets compare the Cell to a modern GPU. The cell has 1 PPE and 8 SPE. A Radeon HD 5070 has 1,600 stream processors. Stream processors are tiny and they do nothing but execute mathematical operations on sets of data. The SPEs in the Cell processor are gimped CPU cores. They can do MUCH more than the stream processors and they do it much faster. However, it's 1 PPE + SPE against thousands of stream processors. The stream processors completely outperform the Cell processor.

 

Highest performing cell right now : 0.5 Teraflops

Highest performing GPU right now : 6.5+ Teraflops with 3,200+ stream processors.

 

There is no comparison.

me..have no idea what i am taliking about?

that's rich.

the Cell processor is a stream processor, pure and simple that's a fact. gimped core's. god you are just as thick as the "if it's not x86" is crap for game's. that very way of thinking is what stunt's growth in computing.

you have a one track mind my friend just stop. 

while i respect you I do not happen to agree with your take on how and which processor is classed in your IDEA what a stream processor is or is not.

The Cell processor from STI, an alliance of Sony Computer Entertainment, Toshiba Corporation, and IBM, is a hardware architecture that can function like a stream processor with appropriate software support. It consists of a controlling processor, the PPE (Power Processing Element, an IBM PowerPC) and a set of SIMD coprocessors, called SPEs (Synergistic Processing Elements), each with independent program counters and instruction memory, in effect a MIMD machine. In the native programming model all DMA and program scheduling is left up to the programmer. The hardware provides a fast ring bus among the processors for local communication. Because the local memory for instructions and data is limited the only programs that can exploit this architecture effectively either require a tiny memory footprint or adhere to a stream programming model. With a suitable algorithm the performance of the Cell can rival that of pure stream processors, however this nearly always requires a complete redesign of algorithms and software.

He is right.  It is NOT a stream processor.  It can only act like one with very complicated and reworked software support.  True stream processors combined in mass in the structure of say a GPU will always be superior to the Cell unless the Cell structure were to add more PPE and LOTS more SPEs.

And I have no idea where you even got this "if it's not x86 its crap for games" statement.  When was this even something people believed?  5 years ago?  x64 is clearly the best choice for pretty much anything within the last few years and from this point on.  Or perhaps this statement is so foreign and aged that I do not know what exactly it is referring to?



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I said from the beginning that cell will survive



joeorc said:
jetrii said:

me..have no idea what i am taliking about?

that's rich.

the Cell processor is a stream processor, pure and simple that's a fact. gimped core's. god you are just as thick as the "if it's not x86" is crap for game's. that very way of thinking is what stunt's growth in computing.

you have a one track mind my friend just stop. 

while i respect you I do not happen to agree with your take on how and which processor is classed in your IDEA what a stream processor is or is not.

lol, What the hell are you talking about ?

Neither the PS3, nor the XBOX360 or the Wii are x86 compatible, they are all PowerPC based.

The only recent x86 console thats worth mentioning, was the original XBOKS, so i don't think there are many x86 fanatics on this forum.

All this might come as a surprise to you!

p.s.

On Topic:

Regarding your CELL = Stream Processor discussion:

I haven't looked it up on wiki yet, but i'm on jetrii's side.

Why ? Cause he might know the difference between PowerPC and x86.



blablubb said:
joeorc said:
jetrii said:
 

me..have no idea what i am taliking about?

that's rich.

the Cell processor is a stream processor, pure and simple that's a fact. gimped core's. god you are just as thick as the "if it's not x86" is crap for game's. that very way of thinking is what stunt's growth in computing.

you have a one track mind my friend just stop. 

while i respect you I do not happen to agree with your take on how and which processor is classed in your IDEA what a stream processor is or is not.

lol, What the hell are you talking about ?

Neither the PS3, nor the XBOX360 or the Wii are x86 compatible, they are all PowerPC based.

The only recent x86 console thats worth mentioning, was the original XBOKS, so i don't think there are many x86 fanatics on this forum.

All this might come as a surprise to you!

p.s.

On Topic:

Regarding your CELL = Stream Processor discussion:

I haven't looked it up on wiki yet, but i'm on jetrii's side.

Why ? Cause he might know the difference between PowerPC and x86.

I know that...

I was talking about his statement that the "SPEs do not make sense anymore and IBM knows this"

that's the same kind of talk that people who want the status quo to remain the same, and keep the x86 alway's in the forefront of alway's being better than powerPC processor's.

an Elitist. if its not a GPU or a x86 than its not good for game's .

AND 

you agree with them is alright and ok but For me I tend to agree with one of the main designer's of what the chip is or is not:

DR. Hofstee explains what the Cell is:

ABSTRACT

 

This paper describes the architecture and implementation of the original gaming-oriented synergistic processor element (SPE) in both 90-nm and 65-nm silicon-on-insulator (SOI) technology and introduces a new SPE implementation targeted for the high-performance computing community. The Cell Broadband Engine processor contains eight SPEs. The dual-issue, four-way single-instruction multiple-data processor is designed to achieve high performance per area and power and is optimized to process streaming data, simulate physical phenomena, and render objects digitally. Most aspects of data movement and instruction flow are controlled by software to improve the performance of the memory system and the core performance density. The SPE was designed as an 11-FO4 (fan-out-of-4-inverter-delay) processor using 20.9 million transistors within 14.8 mm2 using the IBM 90-nm SOI low-k process. CMOS (complementary metal-oxide semiconductor) static gates implement the majority of the logic. Dynamic circuits are used in critical areas and occupy 19% of the non-static random access memory (SRAM) area. Instruction set architecture, microarchitecture, and physical implementation are tightly coupled to achieve a compact and power-efficient design. Correct operation has been observed at up to 5.6 GHz and 7.3 GHz, respectively, in 90-nm and 65-nm SOI technology.

http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1345059.1345063&coll=GUIDE&dl=GUIDE&CFID=63865659&CFTOKEN=31018906



I AM BOLO

100% lover "nothing else matter's" after that...

ps:

Proud psOne/2/3/p owner.  I survived Aplcalyps3 and all I got was this lousy Signature.

nightsurge said:
joeorc said:
jetrii said:
joeorc said:
jetrii said:
The current Cell processor design is pretty much dead. SPEs do not make sense anymore and IBM knows this. The new generation of Cell processors will be a few Power7 cores that manage a few thousand stream processors. Even if they call it "Cell", it is a completely different architecture. Granted, it will definitely borrow a few technologies from the current cell, but it will simply be a different processor with the same name.

This those effect the PS4, as it means that backwards compatibility is pretty much dead. If developers thought that porting games to the cell processor was bad, they are going to struggle even more with stream processors. Emulating a Cell with stream processors + a few cores is not hard, but it requires more power than will be available in the next generation of consoles.

lol..

no its not! dead, god!

you are making my head hurt..you do know that the Cell Processor 

"is a streaming processor"

as a matter of fact "the cell is a stream processor with embedded ram on the die"

talk about taking a new's scoop and blowing it way out of proportion.

 

You have no idea what you are talking about. The Cell processor can be used to stream process data, but it is not a stream processor in the OpenCL context. They sound the same, but there are distinctions. Lets compare the Cell to a modern GPU. The cell has 1 PPE and 8 SPE. A Radeon HD 5070 has 1,600 stream processors. Stream processors are tiny and they do nothing but execute mathematical operations on sets of data. The SPEs in the Cell processor are gimped CPU cores. They can do MUCH more than the stream processors and they do it much faster. However, it's 1 PPE + SPE against thousands of stream processors. The stream processors completely outperform the Cell processor.

 

Highest performing cell right now : 0.5 Teraflops

Highest performing GPU right now : 6.5+ Teraflops with 3,200+ stream processors.

 

There is no comparison.

me..have no idea what i am taliking about?

that's rich.

the Cell processor is a stream processor, pure and simple that's a fact. gimped core's. god you are just as thick as the "if it's not x86" is crap for game's. that very way of thinking is what stunt's growth in computing.

you have a one track mind my friend just stop. 

while i respect you I do not happen to agree with your take on how and which processor is classed in your IDEA what a stream processor is or is not.

The Cell processor from STI, an alliance of Sony Computer Entertainment, Toshiba Corporation, and IBM, is a hardware architecture that can function like a stream processor with appropriate software support. It consists of a controlling processor, the PPE (Power Processing Element, an IBM PowerPC) and a set of SIMD coprocessors, called SPEs (Synergistic Processing Elements), each with independent program counters and instruction memory, in effect a MIMD machine. In the native programming model all DMA and program scheduling is left up to the programmer. The hardware provides a fast ring bus among the processors for local communication. Because the local memory for instructions and data is limited the only programs that can exploit this architecture effectively either require a tiny memory footprint or adhere to a stream programming model. With a suitable algorithm the performance of the Cell can rival that of pure stream processors, however this nearly always requires a complete redesign of algorithms and software.

He is right.  It is NOT a stream processor.  It can only act like one with very complicated and reworked software support.  True stream processors combined in mass in the structure of say a GPU will always be superior to the Cell unless the Cell structure were to add more PPE and LOTS more SPEs.

And I have no idea where you even got this "if it's not x86 its crap for games" statement.  When was this even something people believed?  5 years ago?  x64 is clearly the best choice for pretty much anything within the last few years and from this point on.  Or perhaps this statement is so foreign and aged that I do not know what exactly it is referring to?

now that's your opinion and while i respect that DR. Hofstee and I disagree with your take:

ABSTRACT

 

This paper describes the architecture and implementation of the original gaming-oriented synergistic processor element (SPE) in both 90-nm and 65-nm silicon-on-insulator (SOI) technology and introduces a new SPE implementation targeted for the high-performance computing community. The Cell Broadband Engine processor contains eight SPEs. The dual-issue, four-way single-instruction multiple-data processor is designed to achieve high performance per area and power and is optimized to process streaming data, simulate physical phenomena, and render objects digitally. Most aspects of data movement and instruction flow are controlled by software to improve the performance of the memory system and the core performance density. The SPE was designed as an 11-FO4 (fan-out-of-4-inverter-delay) processor using 20.9 million transistors within 14.8 mm2 using the IBM 90-nm SOI low-k process. CMOS (complementary metal-oxide semiconductor) static gates implement the majority of the logic. Dynamic circuits are used in critical areas and occupy 19% of the non-static random access memory (SRAM) area. Instruction set architecture, microarchitecture, and physical implementation are tightly coupled to achieve a compact and power-efficient design. Correct operation has been observed at up to 5.6 GHz and 7.3 GHz, respectively, in 90-nm and 65-nm SOI technology.

http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1345059.1345063&coll=GUIDE&dl=GUIDE&CFID=63865659&CFTOKEN=31018906



I AM BOLO

100% lover "nothing else matter's" after that...

ps:

Proud psOne/2/3/p owner.  I survived Aplcalyps3 and all I got was this lousy Signature.

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it does not matter if a GPU is geared toward the Graphic's and its faster than the Cell, which of course it is but on the same token the Cell processor is a streaming processor. that is a fact saying because a GPU may be faster does not take away the IDEA that the Cell is a GPU or that it also accelerates GPU function's.

the blunt truth of the matter is there are many on this board that like to claim what the Cell is in their Opinion, but Have little to near no experience with the Cell processor at all. and based on what other people have told them. who also may not have any experience at all have their IDEA what the Cell processor is .

No matter how flawed that PREDETERMINED IDEA MAY BE is they stick to it.

Now while i can respect some's Opinion on any matter , I also would like to think those same people can see other's Opinion's on the matter and not just dismiss their experience with something. That some on here may have.



I AM BOLO

100% lover "nothing else matter's" after that...

ps:

Proud psOne/2/3/p owner.  I survived Aplcalyps3 and all I got was this lousy Signature.

joeorc said:
nightsurge said:
joeorc said:
jetrii said:
joeorc said:
jetrii said:
The current Cell processor design is pretty much dead. SPEs do not make sense anymore and IBM knows this. The new generation of Cell processors will be a few Power7 cores that manage a few thousand stream processors. Even if they call it "Cell", it is a completely different architecture. Granted, it will definitely borrow a few technologies from the current cell, but it will simply be a different processor with the same name.

This those effect the PS4, as it means that backwards compatibility is pretty much dead. If developers thought that porting games to the cell processor was bad, they are going to struggle even more with stream processors. Emulating a Cell with stream processors + a few cores is not hard, but it requires more power than will be available in the next generation of consoles.

lol..

no its not! dead, god!

you are making my head hurt..you do know that the Cell Processor 

"is a streaming processor"

as a matter of fact "the cell is a stream processor with embedded ram on the die"

talk about taking a new's scoop and blowing it way out of proportion.

 

You have no idea what you are talking about. The Cell processor can be used to stream process data, but it is not a stream processor in the OpenCL context. They sound the same, but there are distinctions. Lets compare the Cell to a modern GPU. The cell has 1 PPE and 8 SPE. A Radeon HD 5070 has 1,600 stream processors. Stream processors are tiny and they do nothing but execute mathematical operations on sets of data. The SPEs in the Cell processor are gimped CPU cores. They can do MUCH more than the stream processors and they do it much faster. However, it's 1 PPE + SPE against thousands of stream processors. The stream processors completely outperform the Cell processor.

 

Highest performing cell right now : 0.5 Teraflops

Highest performing GPU right now : 6.5+ Teraflops with 3,200+ stream processors.

 

There is no comparison.

me..have no idea what i am taliking about?

that's rich.

the Cell processor is a stream processor, pure and simple that's a fact. gimped core's. god you are just as thick as the "if it's not x86" is crap for game's. that very way of thinking is what stunt's growth in computing.

you have a one track mind my friend just stop. 

while i respect you I do not happen to agree with your take on how and which processor is classed in your IDEA what a stream processor is or is not.

The Cell processor from STI, an alliance of Sony Computer Entertainment, Toshiba Corporation, and IBM, is a hardware architecture that can function like a stream processor with appropriate software support. It consists of a controlling processor, the PPE (Power Processing Element, an IBM PowerPC) and a set of SIMD coprocessors, called SPEs (Synergistic Processing Elements), each with independent program counters and instruction memory, in effect a MIMD machine. In the native programming model all DMA and program scheduling is left up to the programmer. The hardware provides a fast ring bus among the processors for local communication. Because the local memory for instructions and data is limited the only programs that can exploit this architecture effectively either require a tiny memory footprint or adhere to a stream programming model. With a suitable algorithm the performance of the Cell can rival that of pure stream processors, however this nearly always requires a complete redesign of algorithms and software.

He is right.  It is NOT a stream processor.  It can only act like one with very complicated and reworked software support.  True stream processors combined in mass in the structure of say a GPU will always be superior to the Cell unless the Cell structure were to add more PPE and LOTS more SPEs.

And I have no idea where you even got this "if it's not x86 its crap for games" statement.  When was this even something people believed?  5 years ago?  x64 is clearly the best choice for pretty much anything within the last few years and from this point on.  Or perhaps this statement is so foreign and aged that I do not know what exactly it is referring to?

now that's your opinion and while i respect that DR. Hofstee and I disagree with your take:

ABSTRACT

 

This paper describes the architecture and implementation of the original gaming-oriented synergistic processor element (SPE) in both 90-nm and 65-nm silicon-on-insulator (SOI) technology and introduces a new SPE implementation targeted for the high-performance computing community. The Cell Broadband Engine processor contains eight SPEs. The dual-issue, four-way single-instruction multiple-data processor is designed to achieve high performance per area and power and is optimized to process streaming data, simulate physical phenomena, and render objects digitally. Most aspects of data movement and instruction flow are controlled by software to improve the performance of the memory system and the core performance density. The SPE was designed as an 11-FO4 (fan-out-of-4-inverter-delay) processor using 20.9 million transistors within 14.8 mm2 using the IBM 90-nm SOI low-k process. CMOS (complementary metal-oxide semiconductor) static gates implement the majority of the logic. Dynamic circuits are used in critical areas and occupy 19% of the non-static random access memory (SRAM) area. Instruction set architecture, microarchitecture, and physical implementation are tightly coupled to achieve a compact and power-efficient design. Correct operation has been observed at up to 5.6 GHz and 7.3 GHz, respectively, in 90-nm and 65-nm SOI technology.

http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1345059.1345063&coll=GUIDE&dl=GUIDE&CFID=63865659&CFTOKEN=31018906

That's not my opinion, that's a fact.  The Cell is NOT a stream processor.  Every cpu can process streaming data.  What you quoted has nothing to do with being a stream processor.



nightsurge said:
joeorc said:
nightsurge said:
joeorc said:
jetrii said:
joeorc said:
jetrii said:
The current Cell processor design is pretty much dead. SPEs do not make sense anymore and IBM knows this. The new generation of Cell processors will be a few Power7 cores that manage a few thousand stream processors. Even if they call it "Cell", it is a completely different architecture. Granted, it will definitely borrow a few technologies from the current cell, but it will simply be a different processor with the same name.

This those effect the PS4, as it means that backwards compatibility is pretty much dead. If developers thought that porting games to the cell processor was bad, they are going to struggle even more with stream processors. Emulating a Cell with stream processors + a few cores is not hard, but it requires more power than will be available in the next generation of consoles.

lol..

no its not! dead, god!

you are making my head hurt..you do know that the Cell Processor 

"is a streaming processor"

as a matter of fact "the cell is a stream processor with embedded ram on the die"

talk about taking a new's scoop and blowing it way out of proportion.

 

You have no idea what you are talking about. The Cell processor can be used to stream process data, but it is not a stream processor in the OpenCL context. They sound the same, but there are distinctions. Lets compare the Cell to a modern GPU. The cell has 1 PPE and 8 SPE. A Radeon HD 5070 has 1,600 stream processors. Stream processors are tiny and they do nothing but execute mathematical operations on sets of data. The SPEs in the Cell processor are gimped CPU cores. They can do MUCH more than the stream processors and they do it much faster. However, it's 1 PPE + SPE against thousands of stream processors. The stream processors completely outperform the Cell processor.

 

Highest performing cell right now : 0.5 Teraflops

Highest performing GPU right now : 6.5+ Teraflops with 3,200+ stream processors.

 

There is no comparison.

me..have no idea what i am taliking about?

that's rich.

the Cell processor is a stream processor, pure and simple that's a fact. gimped core's. god you are just as thick as the "if it's not x86" is crap for game's. that very way of thinking is what stunt's growth in computing.

you have a one track mind my friend just stop. 

while i respect you I do not happen to agree with your take on how and which processor is classed in your IDEA what a stream processor is or is not.

The Cell processor from STI, an alliance of Sony Computer Entertainment, Toshiba Corporation, and IBM, is a hardware architecture that can function like a stream processor with appropriate software support. It consists of a controlling processor, the PPE (Power Processing Element, an IBM PowerPC) and a set of SIMD coprocessors, called SPEs (Synergistic Processing Elements), each with independent program counters and instruction memory, in effect a MIMD machine. In the native programming model all DMA and program scheduling is left up to the programmer. The hardware provides a fast ring bus among the processors for local communication. Because the local memory for instructions and data is limited the only programs that can exploit this architecture effectively either require a tiny memory footprint or adhere to a stream programming model. With a suitable algorithm the performance of the Cell can rival that of pure stream processors, however this nearly always requires a complete redesign of algorithms and software.

He is right.  It is NOT a stream processor.  It can only act like one with very complicated and reworked software support.  True stream processors combined in mass in the structure of say a GPU will always be superior to the Cell unless the Cell structure were to add more PPE and LOTS more SPEs.

And I have no idea where you even got this "if it's not x86 its crap for games" statement.  When was this even something people believed?  5 years ago?  x64 is clearly the best choice for pretty much anything within the last few years and from this point on.  Or perhaps this statement is so foreign and aged that I do not know what exactly it is referring to?

now that's your opinion and while i respect that DR. Hofstee and I disagree with your take:

 

This paper describes the architecture and implementation of the original gaming-oriented synergistic processor element (SPE) in both 90-nm and 65-nm silicon-on-insulator (SOI) technology and introduces a new SPE implementation targeted for the high-performance computing community. The Cell Broadband Engine processor contains eight SPEs. The dual-issue, four-way single-instruction multiple-data processor is designed to achieve high performance per area and power and is optimized to process streaming data, simulate physical phenomena, and render objects digitally. Most aspects of data movement and instruction flow are controlled by software to improve the performance of the memory system and the core performance density. The SPE was designed as an 11-FO4 (fan-out-of-4-inverter-delay) processor using 20.9 million transistors within 14.8 mm2 using the IBM 90-nm SOI low-k process. CMOS (complementary metal-oxide semiconductor) static gates implement the majority of the logic. Dynamic circuits are used in critical areas and occupy 19% of the non-static random access memory (SRAM) area. Instruction set architecture, microarchitecture, and physical implementation are tightly coupled to achieve a compact and power-efficient design. Correct operation has been observed at up to 5.6 GHz and 7.3 GHz, respectively, in 90-nm and 65-nm SOI technology.

http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1345059.1345063&coll=GUIDE&dl=GUIDE&CFID=63865659&CFTOKEN=31018906

That's not my opinion, that's a fact.  The Cell is NOT a stream processor.  Every cpu can process streaming data.  What you quoted has nothing to do with being a stream processor.

lol..so your saying DR. HOFSTEE IS WRONG?

THE GUY WHO HELP CREATE THE Cell Processor.

while i respect your Opinion, I tend to Agree with the Man who has spent the last 6 year's and more developing and creating the PROCESSOR.

And yes it does.

The SPE's in the Cell processor are in FACT stream processor's

 



I AM BOLO

100% lover "nothing else matter's" after that...

ps:

Proud psOne/2/3/p owner.  I survived Aplcalyps3 and all I got was this lousy Signature.

here is a system architect at AMD states what a STREAMING PROCESSOR IS:

GPUs can act like a stream processor, but can go beyond a pure stream processor. The best working definition I think I can give is that a streaming processor must name all the elements it will access for each kernel invocation and it executes the same kernel across a stream of elements, often in a data parallel fashion (but a streaming processor can be serial). Others in the field might give you a slightly different variation, and if you ask a DSP guy, they will likely give you yet another definition. Wikipedia also has a version of this definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stream_processing) and (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPGPU). Other people view 'Stream Processing' as SIMD (much like a variant of vector processing, but without the 1 in 1 out restriction) as the DSP folks do where I tend to have a more relaxed view that it is SPMD.

When I say 'name elements' I mean that all the data can be localized before each kernel invocation or the data can be prefetched in time for execution. Where GPUs differ is that within the execution on an element you can calculate address to gather from, i.e. they can change what the access based on the data they are processing. Where things get really blury is that for GPUs to even run, you have to already localize data into the GPUs memory or into system addressable memory.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=38016

 



I AM BOLO

100% lover "nothing else matter's" after that...

ps:

Proud psOne/2/3/p owner.  I survived Aplcalyps3 and all I got was this lousy Signature.

@joeorc:

i get the feeling you ran out of arguments and you are starting to quote the top 5 google hits out of desperation.

btw. It's annoying to see you quoting all these WALLS, plz learn to reply.