I just realized, if we go with your logic, that the CD is our property, but not the contents, we should have to wipe our CDs NOW, before we even consider selling or trading the CD. We're in possesion of something we don't own.

Look, you don't understand. I define having rights to IP as having the right to produce said product. That's why copying is a violation of that, you're producing something you don't have the right to produce.

I'm done O.o

So you believe:

We cannot give any of our private property away, if it has IP protection on it. So that means you cannot offer somebody a bag of chips, sell an old book, give away an old furniture, etc.

If it is protected by IP, the property itself isn't our private property, but still owned by the company, as opposed to the company simply having the exclusive right to produce the product (like medicine).

You don't think, intuitevely (COMMON SENSE, stop thinking like a robot and applying "Do devs get money? Y/N?"), that if the government adopts that, we will be living in a pretty fucking weird society.

Birthday parties and present would not be possible. Flea markets are illegal... >.<

Ok I'm done.

I don't think you understand.  I buy the game, I own the disc, and I own what's on the disc.  The source code/artwork etc. for the game is the companies intellectual property, the instance of the game I've bought is my property.  What warped country do you live in?  Your view of the free market system is completely wrong.

The intrinsic value of chips, as in your example, is in the physical material, same food, car, and most physical products. However a CD has no intrinsic value. The value comes from the IP on it. Go ahead ad offer your chips to whoever you want, don't steal money from the devs though.

@whatever

What I said above. If you are making an argument for second hand sales I can easily raise a valid argument for piracy too. All I'm saying is that you can't have one or the other. You can only have both as being immoral or moral. I'm perfectly fine with giving in to the second market not being immoral, as long as you admit piracy isn't as well.

Go ahead and raise a valid argument for piracy then, because you haven't yet.  The fact that a publisher/developer doesn't see any money for the second hand sale is not a valid argument, so try something else.

Also, the practice of selling used books has been around for thousands of years.  A book is the exact same thing as a video game on disc.  The physical paper and binding aren't what you pay for, it's the words on the paper.  And yet people resell them, lend them, give them away all legally and morally.

What would be immoral is if a company were allowed to tell me what I could and couldn't do with something I've acquired legally.

That's a flawed argument. Your opinion of what you consider "middlemen" has nothing to do with this conversation, and claiming they have no use, is ignorance Vlad.

Without middlemen, we would have no small business. Everyone would buy everything from the manufacturer. Truth is, without middlemen, nobody would ever buy anything from anyone. The developer isn't equipped to distrubute their games. By your logic, Amazon and Walmart should shut their doors, because they are middlemen. It's ignorant, and if we did do away with the middlemen, we would have no jobs, no games, and no economy. Period. It shows a basic misunderstanding of how the economy needs to work. "Middlemen" benefit everyone, even the developer and especially the customer. It's such a fallacy to demonize them.

Anyway, again, your opinion doesn't matter. Those retailers are part of the industry, and wheather you think they deserve to profit from the industry they are a part of, or not, they certainly do profit from used games, but they don't from piracy.

Thus, the flaw.

I show you the obvious difference between piracy and used games sales, being used games sales are sanctioned and benefitting to the video game industry, and you tell me "that part of the industry is stupid."

WTF do you think Steam is? You think they just sell Valve games? It's a middleman in a different form.

Just give it up bro. There is no getting around the fact that with used games, or rentals, money changes hands, and with piracy it doesn't. With used games, you always pay for your game, and that money goes into the economy. With piracy, you pay nothing, and there is no money.

That's it. There is no need to just keep beating a dead horse when you can never get around that fact. It's real, and it's true. You don't want it to mean as much as it does, but really, it means everything.

Games may be intellectual property, but when they sell you a physical copy of a game and you have proof of purchase at a retail store not even the court of law can deny you victory. You're mixing up physical and intellectual property. Intellectual property is the publishers and developers property to keep because it is an intangible asset which they created or purchased. Intellectual property is rarely physical. I think you're talking about licensed games, which is where the gaming industry is headed. Digital downloads and things of that nature are where you're correct about us not having rights. PS3 and 360 physical retail games are YOUR property when you purchase them. You have no rights with a licensed title, but the right to play it. This is why digital downloads are so opportune, because they are intangible assets in every way and publishers will always win in that battle.

vlad321 you might very well have seen used copies of uncharted 2 out but not for much less than a new copy and places will continue to have most their sales be new copies and not used. You know why? There are more people interested in the game than there are used copies. Don't believe me go ask them at gamestop and see how many used copies of the game they have sold compaired to new ones.
Uncharted 2 is new but not brand new anymore. The day it came out how man used copies do you think there were? Wold wide maybe a few thousand and that would be if all those who got it before street date decided to sell it. A year from now the game will be selling for less but the used price will most likely go down before the new price. As I said before the used market helps the developer know how much people are willing to pay for the game and they can respond. Piracy gives them no such information. 10 million copies of Halo 3 didn't sell new for $60 the price went down over time as did the price of the used ones 10 million could play a pirated game no matter how many sold to begin with. 10 million used copies would take many years as the game goes from person to person.

Vlad you miss that when you buy the game on a disc you buy the right to use the game. Sell the disc sell your right to it. If it's a pc game and you install it but don't delete it when you sell it. That's like pirating the game but separate from selling it used.

Like zen brought up middle men are important parts of society. As is being able to buy used. Not everyone can afford something new. Not everyone want's to buy something forever. Selling it used someone gets it for cheaper and someone can turn the money they get back into something new. Used games help keep money circulating instead of everyone just acquiring all sorts of stuff much of which we no longer want.

Your idea that it only costs cents to make a game is far off even when you take out the development cost (which you shouldn't) the materials and energy would make the cost in the low dollar amounts not the cents. If cost were what you say how would it be moral for them to charge that much?

None of them are immoral with games we have today. Oh, and fortunately in the future there will be only downloadable games so only piracy will prevail. Lol @ piracy = theft talk.

Steam is far better off than Gamestop. When you buy Half-Life themoney goes from your credit card, right into Valve's. Not the case with other people's games, yes, but I'm using Valve as an example here. In the end "this part of the industry is stupid" factor just fine in any morals. It's immoral for someone to make money when they haven't done anything to create something, especially such a large percentage.

@everyone else who throws your rights at me

Have you EVER read a EULA? Here I'll post some here which are pretty good.

FALLOUT 3: http://www.amazon.com/Fallout-EULA-No-Activation-Nonsense/forum/Fx1MQDSV0QAZ27S/Tx2VIWKCG4UJJ2G/1?_encoding=UTF8&asin=B000UU5T7E

Noteable quote :

"ICENSE. Subject to this Agreement and its terms and conditions, LICENSOR hereby grants you the non-exclusive, non-transferable, limited right and license to use one copy of the Software for your personal, non-commercial use on a single home or portable computer. The Software is being licensed to you and you hereby acknowledge that no title or ownership in the Software is being transferred or assigned and this Agreement should not be construed as a sale or transfer of any rights in the Software. All rights not specifically granted under this Agreement are reserved by LICENSOR and, as applicable, its licensors."

World of Warcraft:  http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/eula.html

Noteable Quote: "Subject to your agreement to and continuing compliance with this License Agreement, Blizzard hereby grants, and you hereby accept, a limited, non-exclusive license to (a) install the Game Client on one or more computers owned by you or under your legitimate control,"

Warcraft 3: http://serghei.org/docs/games/warcraft3_support/Readme/EULA.html

Noteable Quote: " 

You are entitled to use the Program for your own use, but You are not entitled to:

1. sell or grant a security interest in or transfer reproductions of the Program to other parties in any way, nor to rent, lease, or license the Program to others without the prior written consent of Blizzard."

This has been pretty standard, and if you want to see wha tthe standard definition of IP is then this is it:

"All title, ownership, and intellectual property rights in and to the Program and any and all copies thereof (including, but not limited to, any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialog, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related documentation, and "applets" incorporated into the Program)"

Meaning what is on the disc is THEIR intellectul property not yours. Also you can't sell your lecense to use their intellectual property to others, only they can license their property to others. Imagine that....

@Wonk

If you don't wanna buy it new or forever then don't buy it at all. You don't have to play that game. If you feel you need to play it then buy it, if not then don't play it.

@ vlad, i know everyone hates gamestop but they do more for gaming than any other company has, i work there as an assistant manager and i buy more games new there than you do, so is it harmin the gaming industry when someone else gets rid of their stuff i get paid for processing and spend a good dela of that money back on new games, i have ~50 ps3 games, which are 60$ new small discount but the blow goes to gamestop not the devs, i dont ussually buy used unless its no longer offered new, so tell me this should gamestop be put out of business and unemploy tens of thousands of people who buy new games and support the devs