The_vagabond7 said: And if the community doesn't like it they can leave. It can be ioi's loss if they do, but he's not obligated to listen to them. That's why the community is able to make suggestions, but not demands. ioi is in no way obligated to obey or explain himself to anyone here. That's why accusations and demands for answers and never letting it go so incredibly dumb. If you want to make a suggestion to make it better, great. But demanding justice, and ranting about it, arguing with anyone who will listen, dumb.

OK, from what I understand you are saying, essentially, "Either obey ioi without question or GTFO his site, either way you don't get to complain."

That is stupid.  If something is contrary to the way we want it, instead of just walking away from the community we still (mostly) enjoy contributing to and have devoted lots of time to, or suffering in silence and sowing the seeds of hatred in our hearts, I think it's very appropriate to air our concerns.  And we also have the right to expect ioi to hear those concerns. 

He is in no way obligated to do what we say should be done, but he would be wise not to just ignore anyone with a legitimate complaint -- and ioi has demonstrated many times that he is willing and even eager to take input from the community.  (So I guess ioi disagrees with you too.) 

Part of why I was upset by what happened to Crucial was that, aside from his first sentence being an insult, he was airing a concern about what he saw as inappropriate suppression of criticism of the mods.  I think he was wrong -- that leo-j's comment should have gotten him briefly banned, as it did -- but I was shocked that Crucial was also banned, and for a much longer period.  It made me afraid that any criticism could be punished by banning if a mod happened to feel that way.  

fkusumot said: The_vagabond7 said: jeese, how ridiculous. People expect American like democracy to be implemented to the tee in every aspect of their life. You know what? My house is not a democracy. If you come into my house I can tell you to leave for whatever the hell reason I want. You do not have the freedom to do whatever you want in my house, and I can make up whatever stupid rules I want. If you don't like it, then you can leave my house. That is not ridiculous, that is not absurd, that's plain and simple and I would extend the same respect to your house, and you would expect it without question. If you came into my house and told me my rules are stupid, or wanted to debate the validity and consistency of my rules, or the justice of said rules I could care less. My house is not a democracy. My house, I pay to be here, I put work into my house, you have no right to come into my house and tell me how to do things. If you want to make a suggestion, pay some me damn taxes and maybe I'll consider it. This is ioi's house. If you don't like what he's doing, no one forces you to be here. Hell, just check the numbers and leave if you want. You can enjoy this site without ever having to talk to a mod, or put yourself into a position to be judged by them. You want a better community, go find one or create one yourself but just bitching here doesn't fix anything. You think you have a right to complain here? When was the last time you were forced to pay ioi something to be here? The house argument is a little bit of a straw man. With the proper badge a person can come into your house, seize your property, put you in jail and hold you there without bail and without providing you legal counsel. That's just in America, not sure about other parts of the world.We're talking about legal authority here, right? No one is forced to pay ioi anything to be here. True. You do have to spend time to be here. As you get older you'll find that it becomes more important to invest wisely. To use your reasoning about "a better community", what does your "bitching" here accomplish? Should anybody be influenced by what you have to say? Do you have a right to say it?

 

 Those are poor counters to my supposed straw man. Now this is just turning into a debate for the hell of debate, so I'll make this my last post in this thread.

 

A police officer can indeed come into my house and do what he wants, he has legal authority to do that. But nobody here is the equivalent of internet police. Nobody here can force ioi's hand. That argument is just silly.

Time is money, but that's also a contrived arguement. By that notion I can demand anything of anyone that I spend time with. I could make the choice to go spend my time with some friends, but I would be a huge jackass to show up and tell them that their conversation is stupid, they had better do something better because they are wasting the investment of my time that I have spent on them. If I spent my time at somebody's house and demanded that they make it worth my while I would be kicked out. Now I do have the option of spending my time in some other way without making demands of others.

I am not bitching at the rules saying they are unjust and making demands that they should be changed. So yes as long as ioi or the head mod says that I have the right to say it, I do.

Ah, you fixed the loophole =) I'll leave it alone this time. But one last thing,

I never went on a "rampage", I never spammed, I was never lude, I never even cursed. So stop saying that. I've been nothing but polite to everyone except the person who I feel treated me inappropriately.

Obviously what I was doing was not an attempt to get unbanned. I know that I requested it a few times, but it was simply to right the wrong. As soon as I got banned, I knew I'd never be a member of this community.

My ban might as well be permanent, because I'll never post here again. I've never been on a site that had moderators like this. Never even thought I could get banned for what I said. Maybe a warning, 1 day suspension, etc. But not a ban that extended into next year.

The whole process of promoting mods here is just ridiculous. Like I've said before, a lot of sites don't even have a different color for their mods. The general demeanor here is that the mods are some big parent figure that gets to tell everyone what to do. Several of the members here are simply disgusting with the amount of ass kissing you do for the mods.

I'm not going to name names, but some of the mods here have a great demeanor. They don't just ban because they can, or discipline because they can, or say "Stop it!" because they can. They simply post like regular people and keep the board going in a civil manner.

Some of you are very, very far from that.

Ok this will be my last post (final fan posted while I was typing). Demands are different from suggestions. If you are afraid that any criticism is bannable, then by all means voice a concern, make a suggestion, ask a question. But debating endlessly about what is and isn't just, and expecting some one to somehow change something is silly. The rules are written, the action was taken, it's not being reversed. Beyond saying "I don't think that was right", or sending a PM to ioi personally detailing a concern in a non accusatory way, You're not going to get anywhere, or accomplish anything. Raising a huge public fuss over it is pointless.

The_vagabond7 said: Ok this will be my last post (final fan posted while I was typing). Demands are different from suggestions. If you are afraid that any criticism is bannable, then by all means voice a concern, make a suggestion, ask a question. But debating endlessly about what is and isn't just, and expecting some one to somehow change something is silly. The rules are written, the action was taken, it's not being reversed. Beyond saying "I don't think that was right", or sending a PM to ioi personally detailing a concern in a non accusatory way, You're not going to get anywhere, or accomplish anything. Raising a huge public fuss over it is pointless.

I'd love to debate this, but the points I would argue are pretty subtle and you've said you don't want to spend that kind of time on this -- I can respect that.  But let's return to your "house" analogy.

The "house" analogy is indeed a bad one for this situation, and it is commonly used despite that.  A much closer analogy IMO would be a neverending convention -- ioi has organized this place and made everything possible, and he provides the stuff that keeps this site going (the VGChartz data), and he and some friends he's made among the convention-goers are responsible for keeping fights from breaking out and tossing out troublemakers.  But the users, the convention-goers, are what makes the forums a place worth visiting.  Sure the site would still be there, and the numbers would still be there, but the atmosphere and community are all thanks to the people who those things are created from.  So ioi is the guy in charge, and we should all give him the respect he deserves, but he makes decisions with the community in mind, if not any particular person. 

The_vagabond7 said: fkusumot said: The_vagabond7 said: jeese, how ridiculous. People expect American like democracy to be implemented to the tee in every aspect of their life. You know what? My house is not a democracy. If you come into my house I can tell you to leave for whatever the hell reason I want. You do not have the freedom to do whatever you want in my house, and I can make up whatever stupid rules I want. If you don't like it, then you can leave my house. That is not ridiculous, that is not absurd, that's plain and simple and I would extend the same respect to your house, and you would expect it without question. If you came into my house and told me my rules are stupid, or wanted to debate the validity and consistency of my rules, or the justice of said rules I could care less. My house is not a democracy. My house, I pay to be here, I put work into my house, you have no right to come into my house and tell me how to do things. If you want to make a suggestion, pay some me damn taxes and maybe I'll consider it. This is ioi's house. If you don't like what he's doing, no one forces you to be here. Hell, just check the numbers and leave if you want. You can enjoy this site without ever having to talk to a mod, or put yourself into a position to be judged by them. You want a better community, go find one or create one yourself but just bitching here doesn't fix anything. You think you have a right to complain here? When was the last time you were forced to pay ioi something to be here? The house argument is a little bit of a straw man. With the proper badge a person can come into your house, seize your property, put you in jail and hold you there without bail and without providing you legal counsel. That's just in America, not sure about other parts of the world.We're talking about legal authority here, right? No one is forced to pay ioi anything to be here. True. You do have to spend time to be here. As you get older you'll find that it becomes more important to invest wisely. To use your reasoning about "a better community", what does your "bitching" here accomplish? Should anybody be influenced by what you have to say? Do you have a right to say it? Those are poor counters to my supposed straw man. Now this is just turning into a debate for the hell of debate, so I'll make this my last post in this thread.   A police officer can indeed come into my house and do what he wants, he has legal authority to do that. But nobody here is the equivalent of internet police. Nobody here can force ioi's hand. That argument is just silly. Time is money, but that's also a contrived arguement. By that notion I can demand anything of anyone that I spend time with. I could make the choice to go spend my time with some friends, but I would be a huge jackass to show up and tell them that their conversation is stupid, they had better do something better because they are wasting the investment of my time that I have spent on them. If I spent my time at somebody's house and demanded that they make it worth my while I would be kicked out. Now I do have the option of spending my time in some other way without making demands of others. I am not bitching at the rules saying they are unjust and making demands that they should be changed. So yes as long as ioi or the head mod says that I have the right to say it, I do.

 Yes that argument is indeed silly. You were the one who made the comparison between houses and how they differed from the "American like democracy". I see you are still using the house analogy. I do agree you could classify that as "that argument is just silly". This isn't ioi's house, it's his website. You say your house isn't a democracy. Well, if you live in a democratic country then your house exists in a democracy. That's still neither here nor there.

As to your question "You think you have a right to complain here?", I don't know. I didn't see anything in the rules that say you didn't. I didn't see any rules that say you did. I suppose it depends on what your definition of "right" is.

The_vagabond7 said: Ok this will be my last post (final fan posted while I was typing). Demands are different from suggestions. If you are afraid that any criticism is bannable, then by all means voice a concern, make a suggestion, ask a question. But debating endlessly about what is and isn't just, and expecting some one to somehow change something is silly. The rules are written, the action was taken, it's not being reversed. Beyond saying "I don't think that was right", or sending a PM to ioi personally detailing a concern in a non accusatory way, You're not going to get anywhere, or accomplish anything. Raising a huge public fuss over it is pointless.

 What rule specifically are you referring to?

naznatips said: Sorry about the 28 year ban. That's my fault. I was trying to figure out why he was still able to post despite the ban and entered 9999 days as a test. Obviously that in no way corrects the issue with banning not stopping posting. I'm trying to readjust it back to the original 3 months and ioi can deal with any extensions or removals. As far as your complaints Crucial, sorry I really can't address them because I'm not the one who made the decision to ban you. I think you would have done a better job of making your point if you had been more respectful and less insulting. It also would have helped to address complaints to ioi directly rather than to just attack the site as a whole. You also have to understand that once your complaint has been addressed (whether your opinion is rejected or accepted) you need to drop it. There is never an excuse for spamming.

QFT.  Crucial's complaints showed no respect for anyone involved with the site.  His sarcastic tone and frequent use of insults really hurt his overall argument by making it less credible.  You don't need insults to make a point.  In fact, you're hurting your overall message by using them.  What you're trying to say instantly becomes less credible.  I agree with a ban (albeit, not the length) as Crucial showed little respect for the people allowing such a wonderful site to exist.  I think Final-Fan is overreacting a bit to this.  It wasn't the great argument Final-Fan made it out to be.  It was full of insults and devoid of respect, the opposite of what you want in an argument.

Coming back for a short time to address something: Final-Fan you said your greatest concern was that you didn't have the right to post criticism, but this whole topic has been nothing but you posting criticism without any mod action taken against you. Shouldn't that alleviate that concern?

I guess at this point I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish. You have proved your point. You shouldn't be concerned about posting criticism respectfuly, because you yourself have just proven that's absolutely allowed. There is nothing left to be gained in this discussion.

naznatips said: Coming back for a short time to address something: Final-Fan you said your greatest concern was that you didn't have the right to post criticism, but this whole topic has been nothing but you posting criticism without any mod action taken against you. Shouldn't that alleviate that concern? I guess at this point I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish. You have proved your point. You shouldn't be concerned about posting criticism respectfuly, because you yourself have just proven that's absolutely allowed. There is nothing left to be gained in this discussion.

What I said was "It made me afraid that any criticism could be punished by banning if a mod happened to feel that way." [emphasis added] I certainly don't think that ioi has suddenly decided to ban every single person who looks at him sideways. In fact, I think that this was an isolated case, as I told you earlier, of ioi getting really annoyed and taking it out on someone who vocally criticized his site.

I do think that this thread is drawing to a natural close, but the one thing that would kill it stone dead is ioi saying, "Yeah, I overreacted when I banned him for 3 months, but I'm sure not negating that ban after all the stuff he's pulled since." I'm not in any way demanding that he do this, and I think that this thread will soon die in any case. I'm just saying.

[edit: The question this entire discussion has revolved around is, "If Crucial had been a good boy and not acted up when banned, would his ban have been dropped to one day or just a warning?" If the answer is yes, we can all meet in Happy Land.]