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jeese, how ridiculous. People expect American like democracy to be implemented to the tee in every aspect of their life.

You know what? My house is not a democracy. If you come into my house I can tell you to leave for whatever the hell reason I want. You do not have the freedom to do whatever you want in my house, and I can make up whatever stupid rules I want. If you don't like it, then you can leave my house. That is not ridiculous, that is not absurd, that's plain and simple and I would extend the same respect to your house, and you would expect it without question. If you came into my house and told me my rules are stupid, or wanted to debate the validity and consistency of my rules, or the justice of said rules I could care less. My house is not a democracy. My house, I pay to be here, I put work into my house, you have no right to come into my house and tell me how to do things. If you want to make a suggestion, pay some me damn taxes and maybe I'll consider it.

This is ioi's house. If you don't like what he's doing, no one forces you to be here. Hell, just check the numbers and leave if you want. You can enjoy this site without ever having to talk to a mod, or put yourself into a position to be judged by them. You want a better community, go find one or create one yourself but just bitching here doesn't fix anything. You think you have a right to complain here? When was the last time you were forced to pay ioi something to be here?

That is a bad analogy. While ioi owns the site, the users are what make it special. Set-up rules that are bad and people will leave, or just not stay and the site dies. Forums have to be democratic to a certain extent to continue to exist. Any silly notion that those that regularly post on the forums should just deal with whatever arbitrary rules are set-up is beyond stupid. The rules have to be fair and questionable to have any kind of serious community.



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229

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And if the community doesn't like it they can leave. It can be ioi's loss if they do, but he's not obligated to listen to them.

That's why the community is able to make suggestions, but not demands. ioi is in no way obligated to obey or explain himself to anyone here. That's why accusations and demands for answers and never letting it go so incredibly dumb. If you want to make a suggestion to make it better, great. But demanding justice, and ranting about it, arguing with anyone who will listen, dumb.



You can find me on facebook as Markus Van Rijn, if you friend me just mention you're from VGchartz and who you are here.

Anyway guys, I have to get back to cleaning up the game database, but I hope that's helped alleviate some of your concerns. I certainly want posters to be happy and comfortable here, and I'm sure ioi does too. At this point if you would like something changed please submit it as a suggestion. I don't think there is anything more to be gained by continuing this discussion. The members absolutely make the site what it is, but understand that ioi goes through a lot to keep it up and running as a great place for people to come and discuss video games. No one and nothing is perfect.



No it is not. Not speaking up in a passionate manner when something upsets you is dumb. You should always be willing to rant against anything you think is just plain wrong. The attitude of "if you don't like it, leave," has killed more internet forums than most can count.



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229

naznatips said:
Again, you are down to debates on the severity of the punishment, but that's up to the individual. Whether it's too severe or not, he posted an insult. The original topic was why he was banned. Now, if you have a problem with the severity of the ban, make a direct suggestion that the conditions of a ban and the length of time of a ban be clearly defined. Either way this original topic has been resolved. He was banned for an insult. There isn't any point in discussing this further.


Well, I see that what I said earlier did not say this clearly, but I meant to say that I thought his very small insult warranted a warning and not a ban, but that I could understand if ioi chose to give him a very brief ban.

As being "down to debates on the severity of the punishment", that's what this was always about. Punishment ranges from nothing, through informal admonition, through formal warning, through one-day ban, three-day ban, etc., through one-month and three-month ban, through year-long ban to permaban.

Saying "well he deserved a ban, so any length of ban is at the discretion of the mod" does not seem right to me. If that is not what you meant, please explain in more detail. If that is what you meant, please justify in more detail.



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

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Anyway guys, I have to get back to cleaning up the game database, but I hope that's helped alleviate some of your concerns. I certainly want posters to be happy and comfortable here, and I'm sure ioi does too. At this point if you would like something changed please submit it as a suggestion. I don't think there is anything more to be gained by continuing this discussion. The members absolutely make the site what it is, but understand that ioi goes through a lot to keep it up and running as a great place for people to come and discuss video games. No one and nothing is perfect.


Yeah you have helped some. Thanks for listening, and making useful suggestions.



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229

The_vagabond7 said:
jeese, how ridiculous. People expect American like democracy to be implemented to the tee in every aspect of their life.

You know what? My house is not a democracy. If you come into my house I can tell you to leave for whatever the hell reason I want. You do not have the freedom to do whatever you want in my house, and I can make up whatever stupid rules I want. If you don't like it, then you can leave my house. That is not ridiculous, that is not absurd, that's plain and simple and I would extend the same respect to your house, and you would expect it without question. If you came into my house and told me my rules are stupid, or wanted to debate the validity and consistency of my rules, or the justice of said rules I could care less. My house is not a democracy. My house, I pay to be here, I put work into my house, you have no right to come into my house and tell me how to do things. If you want to make a suggestion, pay some me damn taxes and maybe I'll consider it.

This is ioi's house. If you don't like what he's doing, no one forces you to be here. Hell, just check the numbers and leave if you want. You can enjoy this site without ever having to talk to a mod, or put yourself into a position to be judged by them. You want a better community, go find one or create one yourself but just bitching here doesn't fix anything. You think you have a right to complain here? When was the last time you were forced to pay ioi something to be here?

 The house argument is a little bit of a straw man. With the proper badge a person can come into your house, seize your property, put you in jail and hold you there without bail and without providing you legal counsel. That's just in America, not sure about other parts of the world.We're talking about legal authority here, right?

No one is forced to pay ioi anything to be here. True. You do have to spend time to be here. As you get older you'll find that it becomes more important to invest wisely. 

To use your reasoning about "a better community", what does your "bitching" here accomplish? Should anybody be influenced by what you have to say? Do you have a right to say it?



The_vagabond7 said:
And if the community doesn't like it they can leave. It can be ioi's loss if they do, but he's not obligated to listen to them.

That's why the community is able to make suggestions, but not demands. ioi is in no way obligated to obey or explain himself to anyone here. That's why accusations and demands for answers and never letting it go so incredibly dumb. If you want to make a suggestion to make it better, great. But demanding justice, and ranting about it, arguing with anyone who will listen, dumb.


OK, from what I understand you are saying, essentially, "Either obey ioi without question or GTFO his site, either way you don't get to complain."

That is stupid.  If something is contrary to the way we want it, instead of just walking away from the community we still (mostly) enjoy contributing to and have devoted lots of time to, or suffering in silence and sowing the seeds of hatred in our hearts, I think it's very appropriate to air our concerns.  And we also have the right to expect ioi to hear those concerns. 

He is in no way obligated to do what we say should be done, but he would be wise not to just ignore anyone with a legitimate complaint -- and ioi has demonstrated many times that he is willing and even eager to take input from the community.  (So I guess ioi disagrees with you too.) 

Part of why I was upset by what happened to Crucial was that, aside from his first sentence being an insult, he was airing a concern about what he saw as inappropriate suppression of criticism of the mods.  I think he was wrong -- that leo-j's comment should have gotten him briefly banned, as it did -- but I was shocked that Crucial was also banned, and for a much longer period.  It made me afraid that any criticism could be punished by banning if a mod happened to feel that way.  



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

fkusumot said:
The_vagabond7 said:
jeese, how ridiculous. People expect American like democracy to be implemented to the tee in every aspect of their life.

You know what? My house is not a democracy. If you come into my house I can tell you to leave for whatever the hell reason I want. You do not have the freedom to do whatever you want in my house, and I can make up whatever stupid rules I want. If you don't like it, then you can leave my house. That is not ridiculous, that is not absurd, that's plain and simple and I would extend the same respect to your house, and you would expect it without question. If you came into my house and told me my rules are stupid, or wanted to debate the validity and consistency of my rules, or the justice of said rules I could care less. My house is not a democracy. My house, I pay to be here, I put work into my house, you have no right to come into my house and tell me how to do things. If you want to make a suggestion, pay some me damn taxes and maybe I'll consider it.

This is ioi's house. If you don't like what he's doing, no one forces you to be here. Hell, just check the numbers and leave if you want. You can enjoy this site without ever having to talk to a mod, or put yourself into a position to be judged by them. You want a better community, go find one or create one yourself but just bitching here doesn't fix anything. You think you have a right to complain here? When was the last time you were forced to pay ioi something to be here?

The house argument is a little bit of a straw man. With the proper badge a person can come into your house, seize your property, put you in jail and hold you there without bail and without providing you legal counsel. That's just in America, not sure about other parts of the world.We're talking about legal authority here, right?

No one is forced to pay ioi anything to be here. True. You do have to spend time to be here. As you get older you'll find that it becomes more important to invest wisely.

To use your reasoning about "a better community", what does your "bitching" here accomplish? Should anybody be influenced by what you have to say? Do you have a right to say it?

 

 Those are poor counters to my supposed straw man. Now this is just turning into a debate for the hell of debate, so I'll make this my last post in this thread.

 

A police officer can indeed come into my house and do what he wants, he has legal authority to do that. But nobody here is the equivalent of internet police. Nobody here can force ioi's hand. That argument is just silly.

Time is money, but that's also a contrived arguement. By that notion I can demand anything of anyone that I spend time with. I could make the choice to go spend my time with some friends, but I would be a huge jackass to show up and tell them that their conversation is stupid, they had better do something better because they are wasting the investment of my time that I have spent on them. If I spent my time at somebody's house and demanded that they make it worth my while I would be kicked out. Now I do have the option of spending my time in some other way without making demands of others.

I am not bitching at the rules saying they are unjust and making demands that they should be changed. So yes as long as ioi or the head mod says that I have the right to say it, I do.



You can find me on facebook as Markus Van Rijn, if you friend me just mention you're from VGchartz and who you are here.

Ah, you fixed the loophole =) I'll leave it alone this time. But one last thing,

I never went on a "rampage", I never spammed, I was never lude, I never even cursed. So stop saying that. I've been nothing but polite to everyone except the person who I feel treated me inappropriately.

Obviously what I was doing was not an attempt to get unbanned. I know that I requested it a few times, but it was simply to right the wrong. As soon as I got banned, I knew I'd never be a member of this community.

My ban might as well be permanent, because I'll never post here again. I've never been on a site that had moderators like this. Never even thought I could get banned for what I said. Maybe a warning, 1 day suspension, etc. But not a ban that extended into next year.

The whole process of promoting mods here is just ridiculous. Like I've said before, a lot of sites don't even have a different color for their mods. The general demeanor here is that the mods are some big parent figure that gets to tell everyone what to do. Several of the members here are simply disgusting with the amount of ass kissing you do for the mods.

I'm not going to name names, but some of the mods here have a great demeanor. They don't just ban because they can, or discipline because they can, or say "Stop it!" because they can. They simply post like regular people and keep the board going in a civil manner.

Some of you are very, very far from that.