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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Wii external memory support via eSOL

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Games purchased since December 30th 2006:
GBA:The Legend of Zelda:The Minish Cap
DS:Lunar Knights, Pokemon Diamond, The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass ,Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare, Hotel Dusk:Room 215, Mario vs DK 2: March of the Mini's and Picross DS
PS2: Devil May Cry 3:Dante's Awakening, Shadow of the Colosuss, Sega Mega Drive Collection, XIII , Sonic Mega Collection,Fifa 08 and Fifa 09.
GC:Fight Night Round 2
Wii VC:Super Mario 64 ,Lylat Wars ,Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest, Super Castlevania IV, Sonic the Hedgehog 2, Streets of Rage, Kirby's Adventure, Super Metroid, Super Mario Bros. 3, Mega Man 2Street Fighter 2 Turbo: Hyper Fighting,Wave Race 64 and Lost Winds

Wii: Sonic and the Secret Rings, Godfather:Blackhand Edition, Red Steel, Tony Hawks Downhill Jam, Eledees, Rayman Raving Rabbids, Mario Strikers Charged Football,Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, Super Mario Galaxy,House of the Dead 2 and 3 Return, Wii Fit, No More Heroes and Super Smash Bros. Brawl.

X360: Spider Man
PS3:
Resistance: Fall of Man

 

 

 

 

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@DarkNight_DS, source please. Not that I'm doubting, I'm just interested anyway. Both for those encription comments, as well as your aparent belief that SDHC support may come regardless of hardware. Thanks.

And as to my comments regarding encription, it still takes an awful lot of time to copy games back and forth from the Wii to an SD card. Much, much longer than it takes to copy them from the SD card to (e.g.) my NAS (where I keep backups of everything). So, if it's not encription and/or bad drivers, then the Wii card loader is really, really slow. Seriously, I remember it taking more than the time to download, for small stuff like Bomberman (and I have a 1Mbit connection, so nothing fancy).



Reality has a Nintendo bias.
KruzeS said:
@DarkNight_DS, source please. Not that I'm doubting, I'm just interested anyway. Both for those encription comments, as well as your aparent belief that SDHC support may come regardless of hardware. Thanks.

And as to my comments regarding encription, it still takes an awful lot of time to copy games back and forth from the Wii to an SD card. Much, much longer than it takes to copy them from the SD card to (e.g.) my NAS (where I keep backups of everything). So, if it's not encription and/or bad drivers, then the Wii card loader is really, really slow. Seriously, I remember it taking more than the time to download, for small stuff like Bomberman (and I have a 1Mbit connection, so nothing fancy).

 This website contains some of the info:  

http://forums.nintendo-scene.com/index.php?topic=797.0

Wikipedia has info on the encryption used:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_curve_cryptography 

The original Xbox also had some very strong encryption.  The Wii takes it a step further by encrypting everything.  All data passed between the Wii and Nintendo is encrypted.  We don't see a 30 second delay for the Wii to encrypt and decrypt data when doing online functionality obviously as the encryption used is very optimized for lower powered CPU's.  

To answer your other question about SDHC.  The part of the press release I copied into this thread is only a small part of the info available at the link I provided.  You can easily go to their website to read the rest of the press release.  You can then do a search for info on the original eSOL deal on google.  

To say that external storage isn't coming is pretty silly.  There is no way that Final Fantasy Chrystal Chronicles is going to fit in about 150 of Wii storage space.   All the data points to it happening.  SD 1.0 readers can be upgraded to support SDHC 1.1 through driver updates.  The Wii will end up using SD cards as it's main storage option.  The USB storage may still come and maybe you will be able to select in your Wii config what kind of storage you prefer.  Games could recognize this setting and display your choice in their menu's.  You can encyrpt all data on the card, each VC game has a key linked to just your Wii.  It's pretty impressive stuff.  As for why it takes so long to read and write data to the SD card I'm not sure.  However I have noticed that the Wii likes to snoop things first before doing anything with it's online connection.  Most likely the Wii snoops the SD card for certain data it finds interesting each and everytime the Wii does a read or write to it.  Nintendo could easily change this to happen upon detection of the SD card in the slot.



Prepare for termination! It is the only logical thing to do, for I am only loyal to Megatron.

DonWii said:
I'm confused, so I'll just go with what Kruze said.

Removed post...



Prepare for termination! It is the only logical thing to do, for I am only loyal to Megatron.

http://www.esol.co.jp/english/company/press/emb_press070404.html

I didnt believe him until i visited thei home page.....



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First of all, Chehansen, I never said I didn't believe him. Second, DarkNight, that bickering over every single one of my posts, and even replies to my posts, without adding nothing to the discussion, is starting to sound really sad. If you want to prove your point, do it by provinding info, not with posts like your reply to DonWii.

Now, onto the technical matters. I already knew the Wii used elliptic curve cryptography. That, however, says nothing of the performance issues with software encription in general. Actually, if all the Wii used to encript data was elliptic curve cryptography it'd be quite slow, because like most public-key systems it's not very fast (it's orders of magnitude slower than something like AES). But, in all likelihood a symmetric system is being used anyway, and a stream cypher if random access is needed, so that's not the issue.

The issue is you've now made several strong claims (and adding new, unrelated ones on every post) without properly supporting them. You've specifically mentioned an article which indicated an "half second delay" to "handle encryption". You have a link for that one? Because, it's not the one you posted (which is a forum post, for starters).

Then, side stepping the Xbox stuff, there's the claim about Nintendo encrypting "everything". What's this "everything" we're talking about? The shop channel for instance, doesn't encrypt almost anything (a tcpdump of the connection is proof enough). So, are we talking about the games internet connections? Any source for that one? Please include support for the latent claim that elliptic curve criptography is used to encrypt real-time game connections.

You also said everything is encrypted, even in the internal memory. Where did you pick that one up? I'm not saying otherwise, I think it's plausible either way, but you seem pretty sure of yourself, so... any source?

And as to SDHC, I find it pretty amusing that, as an answer to my question about it, you fault me with not having read the press release you linked. Well, I did, and there is no mention in it to SDHC. Now you made the added claim that only a firmware upgrade would be needed. Well, I already suspected as much, and you still provided me no source, which was what I asked for. You could have linked Wikipedia, for instance, but I found that one myself meanwhile.

Finally, I'm not saying external storage isn't coming, so you can stop calling me silly. I'm not saying that, because for one, it's already there. SD cards are pretty external, and already usable. I'm also not saying SD support won't be improved, nor that USB mass storage won't be supported. I'm simply saying I'm not yet convinced that any of those improvments are confirmed, and that your screens and that press release prove none of that. You, yourself, recognized that the SD card in the picture can very well be a 1 or 2 GiB card, so that doesn't prove SDHC support at all. A blurred image does not prove HD support either, as it may very well be an edit feature, or something else entirely. How full a developer has his Wii... well that's laughable proof of anything, sorry. And finally, future games... well, some once said the Wii-mote had to have a microphone, given Boogie had been annouced as having karaoky; that and you'd be shouting it "wingardium leviosa" on another game, with screens and everything.

Actually, I do expect (and hope for) improved SD card support, including SDHC support. I'm not so sure about USB mass storage, as USB host drivers may have simply been added for the keyboard support alone. But even if some form of USB storage was to be supported, I think a proprietary solution is far more likely (though I obviously hope not). Anyway, none of this really means the handling of VC games and Wii Channels is bound to change. I personally do hope it does, you know, but I'm not conviced it will and find it somewhat unlikely. And the ability to save pictures to the SD card, plus a FAT and a USB driver announcement, certainly do nothing to convince me any more. Sorry.



Reality has a Nintendo bias.

About PrFILE2

PrFILE2 is a FAT file system supporting FAT12/16/32 and VFAT. It has an architecture that can support application specific customization requests flexibly and quickly. Also, it has a fast backward seek function for file pointer, a function to minimize the file system destruction at accidental power shutdown or media removal, and other essential functions for the next generation of digital electronics devices. PrFILE2 provides a rich lineup of media drivers including compact flash and SD card.

SDHC requires the Fat32 filesystem, this allows older SD 1.0 devices to be upgraded to SDHC compliant devices using a driver update to support the filesystem.

I can't seem to find the article I read which stated the performance of the Wii's encryption. When I find it I'll gladly post it for you.

The info about the Wii's encrypted internal flash mem can be found here (One of the guys discusses the Pal Flash dump which was a dump of the Wii's internal memory):

http://forums.nintendo-scene.com/index.php?topic=797.0

Another story here:

http://wiihacks.blogspot.com/2007/05/wii-nand-dumped-yup-its-encrypted.html

I didn't mean to offend you by saying you were wrong. Also the "silly" part was directed at Perrin Kaplans interview and was not directed at you at all. I should have said Silly Perrin or something similar in the post.

You brought up a good point about the unencrypted data packets while using the Wii shop channel. Although in theory it really doesn't mean that encrypted data can't be present inside the packets or does it? If the game is encrypted before transmission would the packet analyzer notice? I assume it would only notice if the data packets themselves were encrypted. I'd like to see some more info about the Wii's encryption.

Have you seen the video for the Everybody's Nintendo Channel?  If so what are your thoughts on how Nintendo will handle the DS Download and Wii video's that are available to use and view in the channel?  The video looks pretty low quality for Mario Strikers Charged.  I assume it's because it's being streamed over the net, but then again it has no status bar in the video.  I guess we'll find out in a month....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GckmvV2odhs&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Enintendowiifanboy%2Ecom%2F2007%2F10%2F10%2Fnew%2Dchannel%2Dblowout%2Deverybodys%2Dnintendo%2Dmii%2Dcontest%2Dand%2Dmore%2F



Prepare for termination! It is the only logical thing to do, for I am only loyal to Megatron.

DarkNight_DS said:
shams said:
Firstly, finally scored a USB wireless keyboard that works - so typing this on my Wii :) Now on-topic: this doesn't mean anything. The Wii already has SD card support - and has from the launch. The photo channel has always allowed reading/writing data to the card. This might allow for support of higher-spec'd cards, and maybe other devices. The issue with WiiWare / VC has always been that of *running* binaries straight from external storage devices - which would require them to be unencrypted. This could be useful as a storage medium for songs (for instance) in GH, Rockband and other games - but even those games may be likely to encrypt their media.

Shams... you are wrong. I've researched the eSOL deal pretty extinsively. Nintendo has two deals with eSOL which cover the Wii's basic SD card driver and the second deal which covers the USB and SDHC 1.1 driver. The press release by eSOL that I posted is the second driver deal. Once again SDHC cards are 66x and faster and start at 4GB in size. Currently the Wii driver only support SD 1.0 which allows for cards up to 2GB. This driver deal changes everything.

eSOL is also the company which jumped in to help Nintendo out with Wii production after the other company was unable to keep up with parts demand (Circuit boards).

Huh?

Please explain why I am wrong. I agree with everything you have said - but I haven't seen *anything* that proves that Wii applications will be able to run directly from external memory (whether that is SD, SDHC, hard disk - doesn't matter).

WiiWare developers will find out soon enough. I am almost (?) certain that WiiWare applications will have to run from a "well defined" memory space within the 512MB that is embedded within the Wii. Not from any other memory.

This external memory could be used for pretty much *anything* else - even "general" data used by an application, etc. Its all driven through whatever APIs Nintendo provides developers, which makes it easy to upgrade support for devices in the future as needed.

Another option which has always been available - is for the Wii to automatically reorganise memory as needed.  Keep a basic directory of applications on the 512MB of internal memory - and copy applications from external to internal memory, clearing out (backing up) internal applications (etc..).

...

I'll be very happy if apps end up running directly from external memory - its definitely not impossible. But I think its a question of developers (specifically WiiWare - VC apps are probably preloaded completely into normal RAM) - memory latency is very important.

Imagine writing an app for the DS, only to discover that *some* users (legit) will be running it from memory that is 10-100x slower. This completely changes the way (for instance) that streaming music systems and sound engines can work.

It might be that the internal memory is treated exactly the same way that a disc device is treated (just faster) - and that latency and read speeds can't be assumed?

(its a good press find regardless :>)



Gesta Non Verba

Nocturnal is helping companies get cheaper game ratings in Australia:

Game Assessment website

Wii code: 2263 4706 2910 1099

...actually, I had a good think about this on the way home - and I have changed my opinion.

I don't believe the internal 512MB of ram is memory mapped at all. That would be too dangerous, and allow a rogue app to destroy the entire contents. It would also mean the Wii had "effectively" 512MB more RAM than it actually did (albiet slow RAM).

It would be accessed through an API - and possibly the same sort of API that files on the disk device (or external devices) would be accessed.

...so in terms of external memory support, it purely comes down to whether the data is encrypted. And since its done via an API - there isn't much reason why it couldn't be encrypted. In fact, existing reports (as pointed by DarkNight) seem to indicate that this is so.

...

Conclusion - it should be pretty trivial to for Ninty to extend the current system, such that VC or WiiWare apps are either stored on USB key, hard disk, SD card... or maybe even network drive. The main work would be to extend the internal management tools such that users can copy/erase files between any of these devices - and maybe even allow the channel system to scan external devices for additional channels. This could add a significant delay to the boot-up time of the Wii however - so some directory or FAT system stored on the internal memory could be useful.

 



Gesta Non Verba

Nocturnal is helping companies get cheaper game ratings in Australia:

Game Assessment website

Wii code: 2263 4706 2910 1099

@DarkNight, I don't mind being proven wrong. What I found to be more noise than signal were your other posts, but no hard fealings.

Small SD cards, as far as I'm aware, can be formated with either FAT16 or 32. Cards larger than 2GiB do require FAT32, but smaller cards can use either (and often come factory formated as FAT32). I'd find it very strange if the Wii doesn't support FAT32 right now.

Your first link (the one you'd already provided) could be taken as encryption being used only for digital signatures (since the guy is talking about hashes), which makes sense with public-key criptography. But your other link, and some other info I could scoop looking for RAM dumps on the web, does point to the internal flash being encrypted. So thanks.

DS demos will be pretty small. The largest DS game to date is what, 128MiB? Also, there's the possibility that you won't be able to store demos in your Wii, it may be that it will simply work as the download stations available in some coutries (not in mine, so I know very little about those). Wii game trailers may be also streamed, as the Metroid ones were, right? I definitely think that of all the annouced features, Wii Ware is the one that will put the most pressure on "disk" space.

All in all, this is good. Better, larger and faster SD card support would be ideal, IMHO. For now, a (faster) 2GiB card would be plenty enough for me, and in a couple of years, 16GiB cards will become reasonably cheap. But first they do need to solve the present problems with SD cards, they're painfuly slow, and it's not just the cards fault, because they're much faster when mounted on my computer. They're also inconvenient, if we start to have problems fitting more than half a dozen channels and saves on the Wii. OTOH, the current channel interface wouldn't really work all that well for dozens and dozens of channels, so something definitely has to change.


Reality has a Nintendo bias.