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Forums - Gaming Discussion - L.A. Noire - Not so exclusive? PS3/PC? Too big for DVD9?

shams said:

makingmusic476 said:
@shams: It's not the size that's keeping the game from going to the 360. It's the fact that it's not going to the 360 that let's them increase the size, utilizing the extra space.

... 

Sure, I understand what you are saying.

I just don't really agree.

Sony are pushing developers to make bigger games. Ones that take more space. Its one of the advantages of the PS3 hardware, and they want to use it for media/publicity reasons.

There is no evidence that the game would be significantly different on either a single DVD (9Gig), or multiple discs.

...

For instance - take sound. Instead of using compressed sound, they might be using uncompressed, 32-bit, stereo, 44Khz (or higher) samples.

Its one of the biggest space wasters in games. A game I worked on had 500MB of sound - and it was compressed, mono, etc.

We *could* have made it much larger if we had the space - it could have gone from 500MB to 8Gig quite easily.

Apart from being a pain-in-the-butt to process (larger files, longer build process, longer disc burns, more server space taken, more source repos space taken, etc..) would it have made any real difference to the game?

No - not really. 

On some machines (this was for a PC/XBOX/PS2 title), it might have improved the audio experience. But we would have been better off putting the extra development time into improving the use of the audio within the game. Instead of making a 5% difference to the quality of the audio, it could have made a real difference - 5% to the quality of the game.

...

Clever programming allows huge environments and experiences to be generated from small data sets. Its been happening from the very start of programming - there are some really amazing demo-scene applications, and the machines those demos were designed on were much less than 1% as powerful as a PS3/360.

It may be a personal preference (development) thing - and there may be a real reason why huge data sets are required for some games.

But - if the developers for those games are not using compression to the maximum, and using every trick in the book to reduce data sets to a minimum - they are kidding themselves.

It would simply mean that the extra space has not been legitimately used at all - and is purely an excuse for lazying programming, and ammunition for a PR department looking for material.

(note that compression *also* reduces load times - and more so in next-gen consoles than last-gen - so there is no excuse to not use it)

...

We have all seen LAIR & Heavenly Sword. Two games that define Sony's desire and use for BluRay. Neither have proven that BluRay is useful for games.

Mono audio? even ps1 titles had stereo sound. i would hate it if they went mono, i dont really care about 7.1 or 5.1 though, but i think mono is way to low a quality for sound.

also, correct me if im wrong, but doesnt compression make your processor work extra hard and if you compress it enough, it would take a really long time for a processor to uncompress the data which would actually add more load times, frame rate drops and other issues.

 




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naznatips said:

Technically Heavenly Sword was impossible on the 360 too because of it's 10GB (reportedly) of uncompressed sound. However, the 360 has a multitude of games with more content and length than it with graphics nearly or just as good. My point is this: If you have extra space, you can use it by removing compression and make it impossible on the 360, but that doesn't mean it's going to make the game better or even longer with more content. It just means you are using the space because it's... there.

Edit: Lair was impossible on the 360 too btw.

 

A bad game is a bad game no matter how you spin it. That saysnothign abotu the format itself.  Who knows how much better 360 games could be if the used Blu-Ray.  Like I said in my second post in this thread, we just can't tell. 

All these games that are "only possible on the ps3" could very well be reworked to work on the 360. At the same time, they could not.  Uncharted, from what I can tell, legitimitely cannot be done on the 360, because of it's data streaming system. KZ2 supposedly uses 2GB of data for a single level.

Sadly, it's one of those arguments that can never be proved.  In theory, Blu-Ray allows for more possibilities, but we can't prove one way or another that certain things can't be reworkedin some fashion to be done on the 360.  Eventually, when we get to 10-15 disc games, it would probably be safe to say that Blu-Ray, or something is even larger, is needed, but even then we can't prove it. We can only use simple logic and common sense.

So far we have many developers saying that their games cannot be done without Blu-Ray, or that they had to sacrifice things becauseof DVD9. Here's a thread I made on GS a while back that compiles a list of developer quotes and their thoughts on Blu-Ray.   

 



shams said:

makingmusic476 said:
@shams: It's not the size that's keeping the game from going to the 360. It's the fact that it's not going to the 360 that let's them increase the size, utilizing the extra space.

...

Sure, I understand what you are saying.

I just don't really agree.

Sony are pushing developers to make bigger games. Ones that take more space. Its one of the advantages of the PS3 hardware, and they want to use it for media/publicity reasons.

There is no evidence that the game would be significantly different on either a single DVD (9Gig), or multiple discs.

...

For instance - take sound. Instead of using compressed sound, they might be using uncompressed, 32-bit, stereo, 44Khz (or higher) samples.

Its one of the biggest space wasters in games. A game I worked on had 500MB of sound - and it was compressed, mono, etc.

We *could* have made it much larger if we had the space - it could have gone from 500MB to 8Gig quite easily.

Apart from being a pain-in-the-butt to process (larger files, longer build process, longer disc burns, more server space taken, more source repos space taken, etc..) would it have made any real difference to the game?

No - not really.

On some machines (this was for a PC/XBOX/PS2 title), it might have improved the audio experience. But we would have been better off putting the extra development time into improving the use of the audio within the game. Instead of making a 5% difference to the quality of the audio, it could have made a real difference - 5% to the quality of the game.

...

Clever programming allows huge environments and experiences to be generated from small data sets. Its been happening from the very start of programming - there are some really amazing demo-scene applications, and the machines those demos were designed on were much less than 1% as powerful as a PS3/360.

It may be a personal preference (development) thing - and there may be a real reason why huge data sets are required for some games.

But - if the developers for those games are not using compression to the maximum, and using every trick in the book to reduce data sets to a minimum - they are kidding themselves.

It would simply mean that the extra space has not been legitimately used at all - and is purely an excuse for lazying programming, and ammunition for a PR department looking for material.

(note that compression *also* reduces load times - and more so in next-gen consoles than last-gen - so there is no excuse to not use it)

...

We have all seen LAIR & Heavenly Sword. Two games that define Sony's desire and use for BluRay. Neither have proven that BluRay is useful for games.


 I understand what you're saying. 

I'm a fan of the HD audio.  It's no different than providing Dolby TrueHD on Blu-Ray and HD DVD movies. If they have the extra space for thsi, I'm all about it.  More realistic sound = a more immersive gameplay experience.   

As for lazy developers and compression, the developers of Mass Effect said that they originally thought that they would be unable to fit the game on a single disc, but with some crafty dev work, they managed to barely cram everything in. There will be games that use up more capacity than a DVD9, it is inevitable, and some of the games, that actual game engine itself will take up more than a DVD9, so it doesn't matter how much audio, w/e you try to put on another disc.  The common data that would normally be replicated onto eachdisc cannot even fit on asingle DVD, and the game would simply not be able to run. According to Naughty Dog, Uncharted is oneof the first example, though of course, as yousaid, it could just be PR. Either way, there eventually will be games that ligtimitely require a BD-rom, you can't deny that.  And I think some, if not many, will come out this generation.

Ultimately, more space > less space. 



naznatips said:
Actually iclim I believe that is possible. The upgrade to HD does take up more space. My point isn't that DVD-9 is automatically just as good, it's simply that using Blu-ray to take up more space isn't automatically better. The thing is that although Blu-ray gives you lots of extra size, the ways developers are using it are not increasing game content. That would require much more (and much more costly) development effort and no one, not even Sony, has shown willingness to put forth that effort.

Also, you will never have size limit issues on a non HD dvd-9 console like the Wii. I mean Twilight Princess is a 40 hour game that fit on a 1.5GB GC minidisk. If you look at the amount of game storage space those graphics take on PS3 games compared to the size upgrade there is really no difference in content space available between the Wii and PS3. The 360 is another story, but they are still managing to make games like Bioshock and Mass Effect. Games with lots of FMV are going on multiple discs. That may be a pain to some, but it's never really bothered me on the PSone...

Killzone 2 is a great effort from sony, makes me wonder how many GB crysis would take up on people's HDD.

    and yeah swapping disc's didnt bother me in psone, BUT there was never a multidisc sandbox game for the psone. plus its a more modern era, with wireless controllers and other fancy stuff, people are lazy now. remember when people actually wash clothes by hand before? now imagine asking those same people that got used to washing machines to wash their clothes by hand now..... actually never mind that analogy..

    my point is, sandbox games would be hard to pull off with multiple discs, they could probably do it if it was specifically made for xbox360, but since L.A. Noire was made for the ps3 i dont think a port would be possible.

offtopic: wow 40 hours? i was very long off for twighlight princess, i only made it to the underwater temple, then i stopped cause i got bored.. the controls were swell and all but the story was boring to me.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------                         iclim4 - "The Friends Thread changed my life!" (Pervert Alert!)                                            Tags? 

Yeah underwater temple is about 1/3 of the way through the game. You could beat it in 30 hours if you don't gather anything else. It can take 60+ if you try and get everything.  It's too bad you stopped there, cause the story really picks up after that.

Back on topic, I agree people are getting lazy and we may hear complaints about disc swapping now. It will never be an issue for me though. Anyway, we don't really seem to disagree on anything. We both agree that Blu-ray allows for more options, but won't make a game inherently better just because that space is there.  It's up to the designer to make a great game with what they are given. 



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don't think this game is coming out until 2009.



currently playing: Skyward Sword, Mario Sunshine, Xenoblade Chronicles X

i'm confused where does it say the developers for L.A. Noire think dvd is too small anyway? I see a link to another article about a different developer that thinks it is too small, but not them.



currently playing: Skyward Sword, Mario Sunshine, Xenoblade Chronicles X

naznatips said:
Back on topic, I agree people are getting lazy and we may hear complaints about disc swapping now. It will never be an issue for me though. Anyway, we don't really seem to disagree on anything. We both agree that Blu-ray allows for more options, but won't make a game inherently better just because that space is there.  It's up to the designer to make a great game with what they are given. 
Agreed

naznatips said:
Yeah underwater temple is about 1/3 of the way through the game. You could beat it in 30 hours if you don't gather anything else. It can take 60+ if you try and get everything.  It's too bad you stopped there, cause the story really picks up after that.

 you serious! what started driving me off the edge was prolly the scene where the girl with the amnesia was laughing over and over again in links head. it was too awkward that it made me lose interest..
anyway

offtopic of offtopic: Naz you mind giving me a pm of what phoenix wright game you would recommend? cause there are a lot of sequels. i need a good game to tide me over before disgaea comes out. anyhelp would be greatly appreciated ^^

well time for bed.




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iclim4 said:
GranTurismo said:
@iclim4, the VP of Rockstar games already said that the DVD format and the lack of a HDD were wrecking what they wanted to do for the game. Their original vision for the game has been smashed by the weak 360.

ninja'd >.<

i wouldnt really say "wrecking" the game. but yeah the original vision of the game would be detrimented by DVD9 and lack of HDD.

Badguy: hmm... the cops are after me.. i need to drive faster!
Badguy: oh no! a part of town that would need a DVD swap change! need to make a turn and just try to
outrun the cops.... damn i wish i could leave this area.....
You: OMG he made a turn! i cant stop fast enough!!!!!! ahhhhhhh!!!! im crossing the bridge!
********************pls insert disc 2*************************
You:...... F#CK!!!

j/k


 Ummm, curious, where did you read that the VP of rockstar said its a xbox360 issue that caused the delay?  every article ive read says its caused by a ps3 delay.  Do a google search on "GTA 4 Delay"  and thats what pretty much every article says, at least the recent up to date ones.  The older ones only speculate a delay related to xbox360, but not because of hardware issues, but because rockstar felt it might be too close to the Halo 3 launch and didnt want to compete.  



iclim4 said:
makingmusic476 said:
iclim4 said:
makingmusic476 said:
Lost tears of Kain said:
No i never stated that, put some missions on 1 disc and some on the other.

Seriously people, if ps1 could do it, im sure 360 can do it.

What sandbox games for ps1 had multiple discs? Oh wait...


Wouldnt the older GTA's for ps1 be considered sandbox games?

the closest sandbox game i played on the ps1 was courier crisis. damn that was fun, you can flip cops off and they would chase you just like in GTA except... your riding a bike. plus you can also punch people and they would fight you back. i remember a guy hitting me then running away, then.. a bus ran over him ^^ good times... good times...


 I thought the older GTAs had multiple cities per game. You beat a few missions in one city, then move onto to the next.  I haven't played GT2 in a good 8 years, though, so I could be mistaken.  Either way, none of them took up multiple discs. :P

oh, yeah..... good point..

 

GTA3 was the first sandbox GTA, the earlier games were a lot different in gameplay.

Ultraslick said: Yeah , thats it lets just ruin the game for no good reason. The game is larger because it (most likely) will have advanced lighting and graphics and uncompressed audio, all of which the 360 cant handle.

But designing it for a weaker system and porting it is a good idea.  

I think they would rather have a quality product.

Yeah, advanced lighting takes up soo much space....


If you wanted to pull this sort of game off on 2 DVDs, you could have all the world data on both discs - then split the data for the specific missions, ie characters, audio, cutscenes, onto seperate discs. That way you have the first half of the missions on one disc and the second half on the other, but both discs have all the level daa as well as anything else that is share. Its basically like multidisc RPGs, but kinda in reverse; Those titles have all the character data, items, common sounds and ojects, ect on all the disc, but the specific levels and related items on the different discs.



Leo-j said: If a dvd for a pc game holds what? Crysis at 3000p or something, why in the world cant a blu-ray disc do the same?

ssj12 said: Player specific decoders are nothing more than specialized GPUs. Gran Turismo is the trust driving simulator of them all. 

"Why do they call it the xbox 360? Because when you see it, you'll turn 360 degrees and walk away"