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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Will more cashflow get Nintendo to release a graphically = system next gen?

Final-Fan said:
Joelcool7 said:
sguy78 said:

Where do you get that the NES and SNES were both graphically inferior to their competition?

The Sega MasterSystem was widely believed to feature superior graphical power to the Famicom (NES) and the Genesis is also widely believed to have been more powerful then the SNES. Of course you may mention StarFox and other games that utalized the chip set created to bring us spiffier graphics on the SNES. But in the end both platforms were inferior to the competition!

No no no.  I'm not going to cover the Master System as I'm not too familiar with it and don't currently feel like doing that research; but the SNES was WAY more advanced than the Genesis.  I mean, it's not too surprising, considering that it came out two years later.  

I've quoted a large section from a great article below, but the short version is that the Genesis was good at being fast (like its mascot), but the SNES completely owned it at everything else (like its mascot?).  

http://www.kombo.com/article.php?artid=10238&pg=4

 

"The Super NES/Super Famicom was a first in terms of hardware design. Gunpei Yokoi started what would become an industry hardware design standard when he designed the console. It would also become a flaw for Sega to exploit in advertising. The Sega Genesis had a 7.61 MHz Motorola 68000 processor at its core. At the time, this was fast for a console. The Genesis had pure processing power, and a separate 8-bit chip to handle the music and sound effects that was known for its distinct use of FM synthesis, made famous by 1980's pop music for its distinctively "metal" sound. For that year and a half on the market, Sega's visuals were undeniably superior compared to the NES's ancient capabilities, and the Turbografx's 8-bit processor with supporting graphics chips that NEC falsely advertised as a 16-bit core. The Genesis sound was also the best on the market at the time, and even though superior sound chips were on the horizon, many people still loved the Genesis's distinct sound. 

"In comparison, the Super NES seemed like a slug when you looked at the specs alone as its core processor was only 3.58 MHz. The key to the setup was that Yokoi had designed the machine to be based on the performance on its companion chips, known as PPU1 and PPU2 (Picture Processing Unit). These two graphics chips functioned in tandem with one-another to let the Super NES perform built-in, hardware-based sprite manipulation effects that the Genesis could only dream of, such as sprite scaling, sprite rotation, distortion, multiple background layers, fog, transparency, and the legendary Mode 7 scaling and rotation combo effect that allowed for a flat background to be laid down and scrolled in a way that provided a mock 3D environment. On top of that was a difficult to program for, but ridiculously high achieving custom eight channel Sony sound chip known as the SPC700. 

"Using samples rather than synthesis, the SPC chip was capable of delivering anything from an orchestral score to heavy metal, to bongos and haunting choir voices, along with clean, clear voice samples courtesy of its low pass filter. For years, the music that would be squeezed from this console would be unrivaled, and is still loved today. Each machine had its strengths and weaknesses. The Super NES could pump more sprites and colors (256 versus the Genesis' 65), but it suffered from a chronic slowdown problem with large or fast moving objects due to the underachieving processor. This caused fast arcade style games to suffer, and those happened to be the Genesis's specialty. First generation games such as Gradius IIIshowed this all too well with the game sometimes even suffering from sprite flickering, a symptom that was supposed to have died with the NES. The Genesis could move things at insanely fast speeds with no expensive cartridge expansion chips, but it couldn't do much else with them which caused more frames to be needed, which in turn, caused memory ROM sizes in the cartridges to go up. Also, it was far more expensive to build special Genesis cartridges with performance enhancement chips than it was for the NES. Performance enhancement chips for the Super NES merely were used to boost the machine's clock speed, while the Genesis needed expansion chips in cartridges that would allow it more powerful graphical manipulation tools. This was far more complicated and expensive than a simple co-processor speed boost." 

Thank you for pointing out what should be obvious.



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I think most people don't understand a lot of the reasoning behind Nintendo's decisions on the hardware for the Wii ...

The first thing I think should be brought up is that the low adoption rate for HDTVs in homes around the world combined with the likelyhood for a home console to be attached to a secondary TV (which would be less likely to be a HDTV than the primary TV) meant that the vast majority of consoles this generation would be bought to be played on a standard definition television. When you consider that 480p displays (roughly) 350,000 pixels per frame and the Gamecube was able to render between 250,000 and 500,000 multi-textured polygons with full lighting and effects its difficult to argue that you need a lot more powerful hardware to target this resolution; unless you're focusing on advanced shader effects, and the quantity of work required to produce those effects is one of the main reasons why development costs have increased so dramatically.

Also, as much as people talk about improving graphics makes games more accessable the opposite is often true. When you look outside the 20% most dedicated gamers at the broader demographic, a very large portion of the population views games with "Advanced Realistic Graphics" as games that are overly complicated and dull; and it is more likely that many of these gamers would readily pick up to play Super Mario Kart for the SNES than Call of Duty 4 for the HD consoles because of how the different look of the game translates into their expectations for the game.

The final reason (for tonight) is that Nintendo would have felt very uncertain about the reaction the Wii was going to see when it was released, and they probably wanted to limit their risk by selling hardware at a profit from the start and limiting the money that was spent on R&D and licencing of the hardware for the Wii. Beyond that, if the Wii struggled to find an audience, Nintendo had to manage the risk that they would be the only company providing much support for the system and they could hardly afford to be releasing a game every 4 years that cost $40 Million to make.



Wii better have a new hook for the Wii HD.

Or the graphics better be amazing



Repent or be destroyed

CommunistHater said:
Wii better have a new hook for the Wii HD.

Or the graphics better be amazing

Miyamoto already confirmed Nintendo's next console will be HD. He did so shortly after the Wii was announced, So I don't doubt that at all. I'm guessing Nintendo's next console will have PS3+ graphics. However I doubt graphics will be to advanced from this generation. That being said I don't expect Sony or Microsoft to truely push their graphics either maybe 2x the PS3 at best.



-JC7

"In God We Trust - In Games We Play " - Joel Reimer

 

sguy78 said:

While I hate to hear about the Wii being lambasted for it's graphical limitations compared to the Xbox 360 and the PS3, it is a little lighter under the hood.

Now, I don't think it is nearly as weak as some would say, and I think a lot of developers who don't make games for it are either close minded, or are too lazy to tweak out what is available to them in the Wii engine. From everything I hear, Nintendo made the decision to focus less on the graphical power of the Wii out of necessity. They simply could not compete on the same playing field that Microsoft and Sony were fighting on with the limited resources they had.

Still, every other console Nintendo released previously was at or near the top as far as the power aspect was concerned. Well, Nintendo doesn't have to worry about their resources right now; and being that they make minimal bad decisions financially, I don't think anybody sees them falling off any time soon. Even though I think the developers need to stop whining, I believe they will develop more games for their next console if it is comparable to their competitor's offerings. Nintendo could still use support from outside game developers, even with their current track of success going on with minimal help from them currently.

 Do you think Nintendo will release a console that will compare with the other two on an even graphical playing field next generation?

Textwall Simplifier Machine at your service.

 

And yes, we want a Wii Hd. Maybe in 2013.



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Judging from what Nintendo has done in the past I'd say that the Next gen Nintnedo console will barely reach the horse power of the PS3/360 , in essence the Wii HD will just have enough horse power to render 720p only, all while keeping the machines cost at a good $200 - $250.

the PS4 and 720 or what ever they'll be called will go out for native 1080p graphics as it is a small jump from what the PS3/360 can do now, but the key thing is that the machines will be cheaper to manufacture which means they won't lose money on them at all from day one, but not to say they'll make money, more a cost to cost thing till they're able to decrease manufacturing cost and such.



What will the seven year old girl play if every console is the same?



“When we make some new announcement and if there is no positive initial reaction from the market, I try to think of it as a good sign because that can be interpreted as people reacting to something groundbreaking. ...if the employees were always minding themselves to do whatever the market is requiring at any moment, and if they were always focusing on something we can sell right now for the short term, it would be very limiting. We are trying to think outside the box.” - Satoru Iwata - This is why corporate multinationals will never truly understand, or risk doing, what Nintendo does.

megaman79 said:
What will the seven year old girl play if every console is the same?

Like any single child would do, play with her self...old school.



^ dude



“When we make some new announcement and if there is no positive initial reaction from the market, I try to think of it as a good sign because that can be interpreted as people reacting to something groundbreaking. ...if the employees were always minding themselves to do whatever the market is requiring at any moment, and if they were always focusing on something we can sell right now for the short term, it would be very limiting. We are trying to think outside the box.” - Satoru Iwata - This is why corporate multinationals will never truly understand, or risk doing, what Nintendo does.

While N won't do it out of necessity, their next system *could* be at par with the next MS/S consoles. Why? because they won't make a huge jump next time.

They realized that by making such a big jump it cost them big time. Thus their systems will be moderate jumps which N can match and keep the pricing ~$250-$300 at most.

Interesting to see what actually happens though. Bet next N will still be less overall, just not so far behind. This way porting a high end 3rd party game won't such a chore. More like PS2 to xbox/GC differences.