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Gnizmo said:

Go go Japan! 2-0 on Denmark! I am really hoping they win. Of course, I generally enjoy watching UEFA teams lose. The conference gets so vastly over rated in these discussions that it gets on my nerves. Not to say they aren't home to some of the best teams ever, but too many seem to think UEFA is automatically better than the other conferences.


Simply because the UEFA has the best teams. Teams that are equal to Argentina and Brazil and about 7 more teams which are better or at least equal to the 3rd and 4th best CONMEBOL teams.

Though I admit that a few European nations don't play nearly as good as in the qualification or the last few world cups this time.



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i don't know what you're argueing about

brasil,germany and italy are the big dogs in world cups

followed by argentina,uruguay,england, and france 

no one else has won it until you do it won't change 



                                                                                                                                        Above & Beyond

   

Barozi said:


Simply because the UEFA has the best teams. Teams that are equal to Argentina and Brazil and about 7 more teams which are better or at least equal to the 3rd and 4th best CONMEBOL teams.

Though I admit that a few European nations don't play nearly as good as in the qualification or the last few world cups this time.

I'll give that it has the most depth in talented teams. There really isn't any arguing that. They have the greatest density of talent in both national, and regular play. The increased number of international players in the regular leagues has changed the international scene in a huge way though. Mexico, USA, Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, and a handful of other CONMEBOL teams whom I am not familiar with would compete just fine in the UEFA league though. Hell I'd say Mexico and USA would end up much better teams thanks to having actual competition. I doubt a CONCACAF team would top the list, but they certainly would make a good show and not end up terribly far from the top.



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229

zuvuyeay said:

i don't know what you're argueing about

brasil,germany and italy are the big dogs in world cups

followed by argentina,uruguay,england, and france

no one else has won it until you do it won't change

I am arguing about the relative strengths of the given leagues. While World Cup can show the best team at a time it cannot really show the relative strengths of a league except at a given time. During the 80s you could reference USA as one of the few countries to make it to third place in the World Cup. The team was still shit though.

Hell lets look at the examples youhave. Italy and France should, in theory, be counted as amongst the best ever. Neither has even qualified. Similarly Spain could be discounted, but they have lost 2 of their last like 50 games (incidentally USA was one of those losses). Historical strength is something to watch, but the current climate is much more competitive. I really wouldn't be surprised to see Mexico end up winning a World Cup.



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229

this is the real list to look at though in my opinion of world cup matches played,click here if you want to see past 25

Rnk Team MP W D L GF GA Pts Av. pts Apps.
1 Brazil 92 64 14 14 201 85 206 2.24 18
2 Germany 92 55 19 18 190 114 184 2.00 16
3 Italy 77 44 19 14 122 73 151 1.96 16
4 Argentina 65 33 13 19 113 73 112 1.72 14
5 England 55 25 17 13 74 47 92 1.67 12
6 France 51 25 10 16 95 66 85 1.67 12
7 Spain 49 22 12 15 80 55 78 1.59 12
8 Sweden 46 16 13 17 74 71 61 1.33 11
9 Netherlands 36 16 10 10 59 36 58 1.61 8
10 Russia 37 17 6 14 64 44 57 1.54 9
11 Serbia 40 16 8 16 62 54 56 1.40 10
12 Uruguay 40 15 10 15 65 56 55 1.38 10
13 Poland 31 15 5 11 44 40 50 1.61 7
14 Hungary 32 15 3 14 87 58 48 1.50 9
15 Mexico 45 11 12 22 48 82 45 1.00 13
16 Czech Republic 33 12 5 16 47 48 41 1.24 9
17 Austria 29 12 4 13 43 49 40 1.38 7
18 Belgium 36 10 9 17 46 64 39 1.08 11
19 Slovakia 30 11 5 14 44 44 38 1.27 8
20 Portugal 19 11 1 7 32 22 34 1.79 4
21 Romania 21 8 5 8 30 32 29 1.38 7
22 Switzerland 26 8 5 13 37 50 29 1.12 8
23 Chile 25 7 6 12 31 40 27 1.08 7
24 Paraguay 22 6 7 9 27 36 25 1.14 7
25 Denmark 13 7 2 4 24 18 23 1.77 3

 

 



                                                                                                                                        Above & Beyond

   

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Gnizmo said:
zuvuyeay said:

i don't know what you're argueing about

brasil,germany and italy are the big dogs in world cups

followed by argentina,uruguay,england, and france

no one else has won it until you do it won't change

I am arguing about the relative strengths of the given leagues. While World Cup can show the best team at a time it cannot really show the relative strengths of a league except at a given time. During the 80s you could reference USA as one of the few countries to make it to third place in the World Cup. The team was still shit though.

Hell lets look at the examples youhave. Italy and France should, in theory, be counted as amongst the best ever. Neither has even qualified. Similarly Spain could be discounted, but they have lost 2 of their last like 50 games (incidentally USA was one of those losses). Historical strength is something to watch, but the current climate is much more competitive. I really wouldn't be surprised to see Mexico end up winning a World Cup.

Europan teams are underperforming this world cup. No one will deny this. Even Germany and England are not looking dominant at all.

However its a single world cup which isn't over yet does not deminish the dominance in previous world cups of Uefa teams along with Brazil and Argentina.

If UEFA teams keep sucking in 2014 and 2018 while American teams like USA and Mexico keep moving upwards, you may have a point.



Gnizmo said:
zuvuyeay said:

i don't know what you're argueing about

brasil,germany and italy are the big dogs in world cups

followed by argentina,uruguay,england, and france

no one else has won it until you do it won't change

I am arguing about the relative strengths of the given leagues. While World Cup can show the best team at a time it cannot really show the relative strengths of a league except at a given time. During the 80s you could reference USA as one of the few countries to make it to third place in the World Cup. The team was still shit though.

Hell lets look at the examples youhave. Italy and France should, in theory, be counted as amongst the best ever. Neither has even qualified. Similarly Spain could be discounted, but they have lost 2 of their last like 50 games (incidentally USA was one of those losses). Historical strength is something to watch, but the current climate is much more competitive. I really wouldn't be surprised to see Mexico end up winning a World Cup.

what leagues are you talking about and in the 80's the usa 3rd place in the world cup,i don't understand what you mean





                                                                                                                                        Above & Beyond

   

Gnizmo said:
Barozi said:


Simply because the UEFA has the best teams. Teams that are equal to Argentina and Brazil and about 7 more teams which are better or at least equal to the 3rd and 4th best CONMEBOL teams.

Though I admit that a few European nations don't play nearly as good as in the qualification or the last few world cups this time.

I'll give that it has the most depth in talented teams. There really isn't any arguing that. They have the greatest density of talent in both national, and regular play. The increased number of international players in the regular leagues has changed the international scene in a huge way though. Mexico, USA, Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, and a handful of other CONMEBOL teams whom I am not familiar with would compete just fine in the UEFA league though. Hell I'd say Mexico and USA would end up much better teams thanks to having actual competition. I doubt a CONCACAF team would top the list, but they certainly would make a good show and not end up terribly far from the top.

I agree about the last part.
But I don't know why you called the UEFA teams overrated. If you referring to the Japan - Denmark game that happened just a few moments ago, I can assure you that Denmark is probably about as strong as Ecuador or Columbia.

In my eyes they weren't the favorites in this match.

The same is true for every game of France so far this year. Only really shocked by the bad performance of Italy



lestatdark said:
Slimebeast said:
Gnizmo said:

Go go Japan! 2-0 on Denmark! I am really hoping they win. Of course, I generally enjoy watching UEFA teams lose. The conference gets so vastly over rated in these discussions that it gets on my nerves. Not to say they aren't home to some of the best teams ever, but too many seem to think UEFA is automatically better than the other conferences.

UEFA is better than all the other conferences combined.

Actually CONMEBOL conference is pretty much on par with UEFA, in terms of national sides. Both conferences have the same amount of WC, and CONMEBOL teams are the only ones to ever have won a WC outside it's own continent. 

lol? Stop joking please. CONMEBOL has only Brazil and Argentina that can compete for medals, while UEFA has:

Germany
Italy
France
Spain
Holland
Portugal
England

Out of the 16 teams that advance to the 2nd round in the World Cup 10 are almost always European.

And there's like a dozen European countries that didn't qualify to the World Cup 2010 but who are better than most of CONMEBOL and African nations who are in the World Cup (Croatia, Czech, Russia, Sweden, Turkey, Romania, Poland, Belgium, Bulgaria etc) .

 1930

(13)1934

(16)1938

(15)0

(4

)
)


)0
(4

6)1978

(16)1982

(24)1986

(24)1990

(24)1994

(24)1998

(32)2002


(32)2006

(32)2010

(32)TOTAL Round 1 4 12 12   2 2       9 10 14 14 14 13 15 15 14 13 218 Round 2 — — — — — —       — — 10 10 10 10 10 9 10   69 Quarterfinals — 8 6 — 6         6 5 — 5 6 7 6 4 6   87 Semifinals 1 4 3 2 3         3 2 4 3 3 3 3 2 4   51 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_team_appearances_in_the_FIFA_World_Cup#Results_by_confederation Finals 0 2 2 0 2         2 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 2   23 Champions 0 1 1 0 1   0     1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1   9
 1930

(13)
1934

(16)
1938

(15)
1950

(13)
1954

(16)
1958

(16)
1962

(16)
1966

(16)
1970

(16)
1974

(16)
1978

(16)
1982

(24)
1986

(24)
1990

(24)
1994

(24)
1998

(32)
2002


(32)
2006

(32)
2010

(32)
TOTAL
Round 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1[11] 0 1[11] 0 0 0 0 0 1[12] 1 4
Round 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 1[12] 0 1
Quarterfinals 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Semifinals 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Finals 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Champions 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
 1930

(13)
1934

(16)
1938

(15)
1950

(13)
1954

(16)
1958

(16)
1962

(16)
1966

(16)
1970

(16)
1974

(16)
1978

(16)
1982

(24)
1986

(24)
1990

(24)
1994

(24)
1998

(32)
2002


(32)
2006

(32)
2010

(32)
TOTAL
Round 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1[11] 0 1[11] 0 0 0 0 0 1[12] 1 4
Round 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 1[12] 0 1
Quarterfinals 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Semifinals 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Finals 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Champions 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
 1930

(13)
1934

(16)
1938

(15)
1950

(13)
1954

(16)
1958

(16)
1962

(16)
1966

(16)
1970

(16)
1974

(16)
1978

(16)
1982

(24)
1986

(24)
1990

(24)
1994

(24)
1998

(32)
2002


(32)
2006

(32)
2010

(32)
TOTAL
Round 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1[11] 0 1[11] 0 0 0 0 0 1[12] 1 4
Round 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 1[12] 0 1
Quarterfinals 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Semifinals 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Finals 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Champions 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0


zuvuyeay said:

what leagues are you talking about and in the 80's the usa 3rd place in the world cup,i don't understand what you mean




In the original World Cup USA came in third place. However, between 1950, and 1990 the USA failed to even qualify for the World Cup. During that time one could have used their great performance in the past to claim they were still good. However, the team was crap. You have to look at what is happening now, not what happened decades ago.

By regular leagues I mean non-national competitions. Premier leagues, MLS (lulz), and the like. There are a fair number of USA players competing quite well in various European leagues was my point. Since European leagues are, on average, much better it has lead to more talented players developer there and greater dominance on the national level. Given the ease, and frequency of playing in other continents but still be available for the national teams that advantage is being diminished.

@disolitude
Its been the last few World Cups that have started me thinking down this line. There is an ever growing number of teams that can play on a very solid level. I admit some teams are under-performing from Europe. There is no excuse for what happened with France and Italy. Other teams are playing up to their level and still not showing a dominating presence though. I am not trying to say UEFA sucks so much as other conferences have really stepped it up. AFC is even making a very good show of itself with Japan and South Korea which, historically, would have been joke additions to the World Cup.



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229