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Forums - Sony Discussion - Sony PS3 Price Cut Around The Corner (SNE)

Derek said:
placidcasual said:
PS3 is not getting 'its butt kicked' by 360. Thats a very American-centric view.

 

Apparently "American-centric" is a new synonym for "factual."  Funny stuff - 5 weeks of winning Japan, where the console market doesn't matter anymore, is enough to make people think the PS3 is actually competing.

 

Apperanlty struggling to out sale a product double your price is good in American eyes lol hey where are those Iraq WMDs ? Osama must have hidden them lol.

Delusional should be the motto.



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Apparently losing to a product that your predecessor defeated it predecessor by more then timesis good in Sony fanboys eyes lol hey where are those Iraq WMDs ? Osama must have hidden them lol.

Delusional should be the motto.



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catprog said:
Apparently losing to a product that your predecessor defeated it predecessor by more then timesis good in Sony fanboys eyes lol hey where are those Iraq WMDs ? Osama must have hidden them lol.

Delusional should be the motto.

 

Unlike fanboys like you i don't care if they outsold it by 10 100 or -10, i dont work for sony though it looks like most of you do work for ms excusing them launching that defective joke and lying about it.



coolbeans said:
I really don't think they should cut their price unless sales are really bad during the fall time. There's no need to hit a panic button just because of April hardware sales.

They wil cut it when its economically viable.

Slim version would be it, or simple costs have come down enough plus iam sure their will be a 299 and 399 model even after the cut.

l



Finally the PS3 will be in the "I might consider buying it" category.




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NJ5 said:
WereKitten said:

I don't understand all this obsession with the profitability of the console hardware itself that some of you show.

Sony can increase profits while cutting the price by increasing sales and thus the profits coming from extra controllers and software sales, even if the cost of production doesn't decreas of the whole $100

Let's say that they expect each PS3 to sell an extra DS3 and 2-3 games in the short term (averaged over the year) after the console is bought. Let's make that $30+2.5*$20 = $80 of profit.

Thus right now each PS3 sold this year will bring $40. Let's say that's 10M sales, thats of the order of $400M.
Now let's suppose instead a new slim PS3 decreases cost of production by $90, and it's sold at $300 with the famous $100 sale cut. Now each new PS3 loses Sony $50, but with accessories and software it actually brings in $30.

Thus the condition for increased profit is that due to the price cut it can sell more than $400M/$30=13.3M.
If the cost reduction is bigger, then even a lower increas in sale will bring in more profits than the current situation.
Plus, gaining marketshare will bring in extra money in the long term when new accessories and games are bought.

Basically, they know the statistics and the average numbers, thus as soon as the production cost reduction will be hefty enough to match the sale increase they projected, they'll cut the price.

That's not how a cost/benefit analysis works (if I understood your post correctly).

First of all, we can ignore the manufacturing cost reduction of the slim, since that will happen with or without the price cut (it just confuses things to include it). Second, you should only count software and accessories from the PS3 buyers who bought the PS3 because of the price cut, the other buyers would have given that profit with or without the price cut.

Two scenarios to explain what I mean:

Baseline scenario: No price cut, and Sony sells 9 million PS3s, and getting a certain profit from software/accessory sales. Specific numbers don't matter for a comparison, hence "baseline".

Price cut: A $100 price cut halfway through the year, when 4 million PS3s have already been sold. After the price cut, for the rest of the year 9 million PS3s are sold instead of 5 million (for a total of 13 million). So Sony loses $900 million compared to scenario 1 on the hardware side (this is the "cost side" of the analysis). Of course, more software is sold during the fiscal year due to the higher HW sales. Let's take your $80 profit estimate for the year. The additional userbase gained from the price cut is 4 million, which has the benefit of generating 4 million * $80 = $320 million. The $80 from the remaining 9 million is not counted, since that's also in the baseline scenario.

As you can see, the difference between the two scenarios is a $580 million loss. Of course there might be some additional savings from raising HW production volume, but that will certainly not eliminate all this loss.

 

Your scenario has two problems.

1) You do not allow for market stratification. If they do release the slim at 300 it seems unlikely that they won't also have a "delux" model at a higher price point. Those people who would have bought one anyway, but end up buying the the $400 elite instead are not accounted for.

2) Evidence suggests manufacturing costs more radically than people anticipate. IBM's fab coalition was supposed to have it's 45nm process used in mass production at the end of last year, but there have been repeated delays and 45nm CBE chips are only recently being mass produced.

I suspect Sony had been counting on the new chips being introduced much earlier and has been saving up large board redesigns thinking theres no point to retooling now only to retool again in a few months for the new chips. We are likely to see Sony put move a large number ASICs onto the CPU which should have happened half a year ago.This move from a hogepoge of commodity hardware duct taped together to more customized SoC (system on chip) designs is what tends to be the primary driver of cost reduction in the consumer electronics industry.

Furthermore, this isn't just a die shrink, but also the introduction of high-K metal gates which is supposed to significantly reduce gate leakage. This is almost a pure increase in yields (and hence profit) as opposed to a die shrink.

 



NJ5 said:

That's not how a cost/benefit analysis works (if I understood your post correctly).

First of all, we can ignore the manufacturing cost reduction of the slim, since that will happen with or without the price cut (it just confuses things to include it). Second, you should only count software and accessories from the PS3 buyers who bought the PS3 because of the price cut, the other buyers would have given that profit with or without the price cut.

Two scenarios to explain what I mean:

Baseline scenario: No price cut, and Sony sells 9 million PS3s, and getting a certain profit from software/accessory sales. Specific numbers don't matter for a comparison, hence "baseline".

Price cut: A $100 price cut halfway through the year, when 4 million PS3s have already been sold. After the price cut, for the rest of the year 9 million PS3s are sold instead of 5 million (for a total of 13 million). So Sony loses $900 million compared to scenario 1 on the hardware side (this is the "cost side" of the analysis). Of course, more software is sold during the fiscal year due to the higher HW sales. Let's take your $80 profit estimate for the year. The additional userbase gained from the price cut is 4 million, which has the benefit of generating 4 million * $80 = $320 million. The $80 from the remaining 9 million is not counted, since that's also in the baseline scenario.

As you can see, the difference between the two scenarios is a $580 million loss. Of course there might be some additional savings from raising HW production volume, but that will certainly not eliminate all this loss.

sony might

Your math looks weird: let's define the current situation the baseline with a phat console losing $40 per piece, and going to sell another 5M during the year.

a) If Sony sells 9M slim at $300 (cost 350) instead of 5M phat at $400 (cost 440) the profit is 9M*(-$50) =-$450M instead of 5M*(-$40)=-$200M. Thus if they are losing $10 more per slim console sold, they are losing -$250M more than the baseline. As you yourself calculated, the increased userbase generates $320M more, ie the net result is +$70M over the baseline.

b) If they reduce production costs by $90 and keep selling it at $400 (cost 350), they make 5M*($50)=+$250M instead of -$200M =+$450M over the baseline.

Thus not cutting price the difference in profit is only $450M-$70M=$380M, not $580M. And while that could still look like some healthy extra profit to have in the bank, it will easily be offset by the extra money you make in the following year from those extra users through game licenses. For example let's say each user buys 3 games a year, lets go into the second year of price cut: that's 4M*3*$20= $240M. Next year it will be 8M users over the baseline= extra $480M for the second year, and I think we're being conservative here by stating that each user brings Sony only $60 a year (first party titles bring more profit, increased BluRay market brings royalties, other accessories, PSN download royalties, some small Home stuff money)

Basically with these numbers not having the pricecut makes you more money only in the first year, but you're losing the money that comes after about 18 months with the expansion of your market.

Different numbers will lead to this time being longer or shorter, but the outcome fundamentally has this "shape": more profit short term (no price cut) or more profit mid and long-term. If the cost reductions or the per-user income are bigger than what we supposed then that mid-term is actually more like a short term (less than a year), and I can't see Sony not choosing the price cut option even in their current financial situation and facing their shareholders.

 



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Derek said:
placidcasual said:
PS3 is not getting 'its butt kicked' by 360. Thats a very American-centric view.

 

Apparently "American-centric" is a new synonym for "factual."  Funny stuff - 5 weeks of winning Japan, where the console market doesn't matter anymore, is enough to make people think the PS3 is actually competing.

Keep telling yourself that. One console sale is as good as another one if even if you are the type of person that likes to look down on other countries. As for American-centric being factual I'm sure that gave most people in the world a laugh.

 



More consoles sold = more software revenue. This is why Sony can cut the price when they need to given their excellent lineup of present and future publications.



WereKitten said:

Your math looks weird: let's define the current situation the baseline with a phat console losing $40 per piece, and going to sell another 5M during the year.

a) If Sony sells 9M slim at $300 (cost 350) instead of 5M phat at $400 (cost 440) the profit is 9M*(-$50) =-$450M instead of 5M*(-$40)=-$200M. Thus if they are losing $10 more per slim console sold, they are losing -$250M more than the baseline. As you yourself calculated, the increased userbase generates $320M more, ie the net result is +$70M over the baseline.

b) If they reduce production costs by $90 and keep selling it at $400 (cost 350), they make 5M*($50)=+$250M instead of -$200M =+$450M over the baseline.

Thus not cutting price the difference in profit is only $450M-$70M=$380M, not $580M. And while that could still look like some healthy extra profit to have in the bank, it will easily be offset by the extra money you make in the following year from those extra users through game licenses. For example let's say each user buys 3 games a year, lets go into the second year of price cut: that's 4M*3*$20= $240M. Next year it will be 8M users over the baseline= extra $480M for the second year, and I think we're being conservative here by stating that each user brings Sony only $60 a year (first party titles bring more profit, increased BluRay market brings royalties, other accessories, PSN download royalties, some small Home stuff money)

Basically with these numbers not having the pricecut makes you more money only in the first year, but you're losing the money that comes after about 18 months with the expansion of your market.

Different numbers will lead to this time being longer or shorter, but the outcome fundamentally has this "shape": more profit short term (no price cut) or more profit mid and long-term. If the cost reductions or the per-user income are bigger than what we supposed then that mid-term is actually more like a short term (less than a year), and I can't see Sony not choosing the price cut option even in their current financial situation and facing their shareholders.

 

 

OK I'm going to write it what I mean in full to catch any possible mistakes.


Scenario A: No price cut, 4 million sold at $440 production cost and 5 million sold at $350 production cost.

Profit from hardware = 4m * (-$40) + 5m * $50 = $90 million.
Profit from software = 9 million * $80 = $720 million
Total profit = $810 million

Scenario B: 4 million sold at $440 production cost, then price cut to $300 selling 9 million more at $350 production cost.

Profit from hardware = 4m * (-$40) + 9m * (-50) = - $610 million (loss)
Profit from software = 13 million * $80 = $1040 million
Total profit = $430 million

Difference between the two scenarios = $380 million lost from the price cut.

I hope there's no mistake now.




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