I'm gonna extrapolate and say that as soon as it has some sorts of feelings, even say pain (however it must be something other than just a basic response to a stimulus), then I will grant that it may feel happiness and all those good things. So about 15-20 weeks. Before that it's a parasite and a clump of cells, future potential doesn't matter, current actuality does. As I stated above, the overall happiness will be increased if said parasitic cells were removed from the mother.

Vlad I am a little confused here


How is a sperm or an unfertilized egg anything like the combined product? I what way .other then a sensational way, are the two parts equal to the whole. Perhaps I never learned basic math but when a + b= c there is no way for a = c or b= c. I understand you are trying to make a point but jumping to the extremes that no longer have any bearing on the current argument is a poor way to get there.

By your own logic you would also have to outlaw any form of procreation and let the humane race die, b/c while you have sex even if you ejaculate inside of the woman you don’t guarantee any type of procreation, it is medical fact that the majority of sperm die in the vagina, and those that do make it to the egg still run the risk of death. In order for a sperm to fertilize an egg there has to have been numerous other sperm getting to the egg first in order to burrow a hole to the core and letting another get in to start the whole process. In fact even with the use of the top fertility practices you still don’t have a guaranty of successes.

You would do better in the argument to stick to the facts and not just jump from both ends of the spectrum and accuse others of the same.

This is more of how people label themselves rather than what people actually think. Thats what I hate most about American politics, everything is black and white, with little gray areas.

In reality, only 25% of American want to ban abortion in all instances, over 50% want to allow abortion under certain circumstances (rape, incest, early stage of pregnancy), and 20 percent want to allow abortion under all circumstances. There is a large portion of people who want to allow abortion under certain cirumstances that label themselves pro-life.

Yep, I am in that group. I do not think that an abortion should ever occur, except when the health/life of the mother is at risk. Even for rape I would want the mother to carry the baby but won't stand in the way of her choice on that matter, as it wasn't her choice to begin with. Incest is plain wrong. All other reasons for an abortion to me are invalid and are a cop out on your poor choices.

Rant:

This is were a lot of religious people are confused.  Its human nature to (illogically) make things much simpler than they actually are so that they can understand them.  Thats why we have religion and superstitions in the first place.  I'm an athiest myself, but I have a lucky shirt that I play golf in because I dont understand why sometimes I have good games and bad games.  Even though every game of golf I play could be broken down and completely explained by physics and mathemathical equations, my lucky shirt is a lot easier to comprehend and deal with on a daily basis.

Which gets me to the subject, Christians dont want people to use condoms and birth control because they want God to decide wether they get pregnant or not.  In reality, wether or not you are getting pregnant can be determined before you have sex (efficiency of sperm, flow of sperm, time of month in regard to ovulation, etc.) but they would rather leave it in the hands of a 'lucky' God than use a supercomputer to punch through the equations.  But who can blame them, I no one else would want to either.

The problem is when religious people start to push their superstitions onto others.  I'm not going to force my golf partner to wear one of my lucky socks, nor do I actually believe that any of these superstitions makes a difference.  Leaving it in God's hands is not a good idea for a hormone raged teenager, and not providing them with proper sexual education and birth control is just plain stupid. 

Considering sperm and eggs as life is equally ignorant.  Millions of sperm die during a succesful pregnancy, so condoms arent an evil device that goes against God and life since they sometimes bring the number of dead sperm up from 2,978,451 to 2,978,452.  You cant make the argument for potential either, millions of those sperm had potential and every unfertilized egg that a women passes monthly also had potential.

(This is not directed at mesoteto).

I know that this was not aimed at me either, but... the bolded just made me go, "errr.... wat?" (sp. intended)

Let me clarify this for you really quick. Most Christians do not want to ban birth control and condoms. The strict principles of the Catholic church dictate the banning of such things, not that all Catholics adhere to those principles these days. I am sure some Protestants would like to see them banned to, but most do not.

At the italicised part, I think education plays an important part as well. I also believe, however, that there needs to be a shift of the culture away from the sensationalized in-your-face sexual shows, icons, movies, ads, etc. that we see. Teach the kids to hold down the hormones and to control urges. You don't have to act on every impulse. To be able to control your impulses, that is part of what makes us human. We need to de-sexualize the culture. Sex is something that should be shared between two people, and kept in private; it is not something to be flaunted and paraded around.

I shouldnt have said ban, 'dont want people to use' would be more fitting and what I actually meant.  I'm sorry that I give both words similar meaning in my lexicon.

Sex has been sensationailized since man (and our ancestors) have been around.  Roman brothels were full of patrons for the same reason porn is heavily downloaded on the internet, and our hormones and animal instincts aren't going any where any time soon.  Asking a horny teenager not to ignore his body and not have sex isn't much different that asking somebody to ignore their body and leave their hand on a hot stove.

You cant tell an 17 year old boy to resisit his hormonal urges, if he wants to have sex he is going to have sex.  As a parent or member of society, the best we can do is make sure he has the knowledge and supplies to practice safe sex.

I can agree completely and glad I am not the only one who sees this, his argument leads only to one conclusion that they either need to have a law that has sex all the time so no sperm is wasted while making sex illegal since you have to waste sperm to have it.

And i think your projecting one faith on all other, sure the Catholics don’t like birth control (they see it as taking the control of life out of gods hands and putting it in mans) and some other smaller sects but most Christians don’t see a problem with it, in fact I find it silly b/c if god , an almost limitless powerful entity  wants you to have a baby your going to if you want to or not

@Manus: Well that is not the best of analogies. Not having sex will not harm you or leave scars. Leaving your hand on a hot stove will physically harm you and can leave a scar. The harm inflicted is vastly different. In one you get frustrated and can deal with it through other means. In the other you just get hurt.