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Forums - General Discussion - If you don't believe in the death penalty, this should change your mind.

The Ghost of RubangB on 01 April 2009
Tyrannical said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:
The OP didn't change my mind.

My whole argument against the death penalty is really short. I posted this in an abortion thread on Valentine's Day:


The death penalty costs way too much money. There are 2 ways to lower the costs: abolish the death penalty entirely, which will save tons of money (good) and never accidentally kill an innocent person again (very good), or allow for speedier executions with fewer appeals, which will save money (good), but leads to more accidental executions of the innocent (very bad).

So, if there was 100% certainty you wouldn't have a problem with it?

 

TheRealMafoo said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:
   "                                     "

What if you could eliminate the accidental execution of the innocent?

(for example, in this case there is no way to dispute what he did)

I still don't think a government should have the power to kill.  I think all murders should be against the law, no matter the reason and no matter the killer.  I want criminals and governments to follow the same law: no murders, no executions, no torture.

I think the only time we should legally be allowed to kill is in defense of self or others.

I think in this case it is 100% guaranteed the man is guilty of one of the most horrible crimes, but I still don't want to allow the government to kill him.  When we allow the government to kill, they might get some right, like with this nutjob and people like him, but there is no way to be 100% sure with every single criminal ever (outside of 1984 thoughtcrime magic or reading people's dreams).  If there's even a chance we can accidentally kill one innocent person, I am against the death penalty.

But even if we had magic powers to be right every time, I would be against the death penalty.  I don't think governments should have separate laws than their civilians.  They get better health care and the right to murder?  Bullshit if you ask me.

 

Has anybody here seen The Thin Blue Line?  Governments can have agendas and want revenge kills, even if the person is completely innocent and has no record of any crime whatsoever.  All they need is the bullshit testimony of the real killer, and an "oh no what if he's gay?"  They just want to make an example of people.



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akuma587 on 01 April 2009

It is pretty ironic that people who are upset about the person murdering someone are advocating an intentional killing of this person. Is that somehow not murder as well that we all play a part in?



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

Hawkeye on 01 April 2009
Username2324 said:
akuma587 said:
Username2324 said:

For the China comment, we're not in China, our system is very different from theirs.

Do I need to explain to you why our system is so much different than theirs?  Because we value defendant's rights far more than they do.  If we didn't, we WOULD live in a country that was more like China.

Look at our Constituion.  How many times do you see the Founding Fathers put shortcuts in the Constitution for law enforcement?  How many times do you see the Founding Fathers make it harder to convict people of crimes?

A system without these protections would fundamentally change our way of life.  You say we should "restructure" our appeals process.  Maybe we should just get rid of the Bill of Rights?  Or the ex post facto clause?  And double jeopardy protection?

People take all these rights for granted until the government starts taking them away.  Everyone innocent person who ends up in prison never thought it could happen to them.  They know their government would never do something like that!  I find it laughable that conservative people don't trust the government to do anything, unless of course they are waging war or prosecuting criminals.

 

Restructure as in reduce cost, if you had read my posts you might have seen that. I mean do those judges deserve 10 million a year? Should those lawyers make $20,000 an hour? That's where all the money goes.

 

Lawyers have to waste (in terms of earning money) 4 years of their life and $20,000-$100,000 dollars of their money in college. ON top of that, 3 years must be spent in law school, which  is both rigorous and expensive. After that, only the top lawyers make the salary you posted. Being a lawyer is a bit like a torunement; the average pay is $65,000 or so a year. Top lawyers amke hundereds of thousands to millions, but they work 10-12 hour days, which is brutual.

Lawyers deserve every penny they make.

 



akuma587 on 01 April 2009
Hawkeye said:

Lawyers have to waste (in terms of earning money) 4 years of their life and $20,000-$100,000 dollars of their money in college. ON top of that, 3 years must be spent in law school, which  is both rigorous and expensive. After that, only the top lawyers make the salary you posted. Being a lawyer is a bit like a torunement; the average pay is $65,000 or so a year. Top lawyers amke hundereds of thousands to millions, but they work 10-12 hour days, which is brutual.

Lawyers deserve every penny they make.

 

People love to criticize lawyers for some reason.  This is in spite of the fact that.

1) Lawyers are the ones who protect you from the government abusing its power.

2) Lawyers are the reason why the food you buy at the store is safe to eat.

3) Lawyers are the reason why products you buy at the store are safer to use.

4) Lawyers are the ones who put criminals in prison.

5) Lawyers are the ones who prevent people from resorting to violence to resolve conflicts.

6) Lawyers are some of the few people who have the knowledge to pass legislation that will actually work and can't be sidestepped by those trying to get around the laws.

7) Lawyers protect people who invent products and create things themselves.

8) Lawyers are the ones who can help remedy intentional discrimination against you that affects your life and your work.

9) Lawyers protect people who have been wrongfully accused of crimes and are a check on police abuse of power.

10) The lawyers who helped write our Constitution are the reason why it works so well to this day.

Man, lawyers just plain suck!  We should get rid of all them!  We should go back to a society where everyone just kills each other when they have a problem.  Lawyers are such a drag on society!



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

FaRmLaNd on 01 April 2009
im_sneaky said:
FaRmLaNd said:

This does not change my mind. I would not support my government murdering people ever.

 

Even if its foreigners? You know, to defend American power, topple a government and kill some civilians?

I'm a pacifist so in reality I would only support a war if my country was attacked directly. I'm not american btw. I care little for toppling foreign governments or defending "america's power".



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Hawkeye on 01 April 2009
akuma587 said:
Hawkeye said:

Lawyers have to waste (in terms of earning money) 4 years of their life and $20,000-$100,000 dollars of their money in college. ON top of that, 3 years must be spent in law school, which  is both rigorous and expensive. After that, only the top lawyers make the salary you posted. Being a lawyer is a bit like a torunement; the average pay is $65,000 or so a year. Top lawyers amke hundereds of thousands to millions, but they work 10-12 hour days, which is brutual.

Lawyers deserve every penny they make.

 

People love to criticize lawyers for some reason.  This is in spite of the fact that.

1) Lawyers are the ones who protect you from the government abusing its power.

2) Lawyers are the reason why the food you buy at the store is safe to eat.

3) Lawyers are the reason why products you buy at the store are safer to use.

4) Lawyers are the ones who put criminals in prison.

5) Lawyers are the ones who prevent people from resorting to violence to resolve conflicts.

6) Lawyers are some of the few people who have the knowledge to pass legislation that will actually work and can't be sidestepped by those trying to get around the laws.

7) Lawyers protect people who invent products and create things themselves.

8) Lawyers are the ones who can help remedy intentional discrimination against you that affects your life and your work.

9) Lawyers protect people who have been wrongfully accused of crimes and are a check on police abuse of power.

10) The lawyers who helped write our Constitution are the reason why it works so well to this day.

Man, lawyers just plain suck!  We should get rid of all them!  We should go back to a society where everyone just kills each other when they have a problem.  Lawyers are such a drag on society!

You know what they say,

 

"lawyers are leeches"

"lawyers ad no value to society"

"sharks don't bite lawyers; professional courtesy"

ect

Comments like these cause people to assume that lawyers are evil. A lawyer who goes to my church is one of the nicest guys I know. Many of my neighbors are lawyers, none seem evil.

 

Also, I am apposed to the death penalty.

 



akuma587 on 01 April 2009

Everyone says they hate lawyers. But many of those same people turn around and encourage their children to be a lawyer.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

FaRmLaNd on 01 April 2009

As with all humans in any occupation, some lawyers are good and some are bad. Simple as that.



Tyrannical on 01 April 2009
The Ghost of RubangB said:
Tyrannical said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:


The death penalty costs way too much money. There are 2 ways to lower the costs: abolish the death penalty entirely, which will save tons of money (good) and never accidentally kill an innocent person again (very good), or allow for speedier executions with fewer appeals, which will save money (good), but leads to more accidental executions of the innocent (very bad).

So, if there was 100% certainty you wouldn't have a problem with it?

 

TheRealMafoo said:

What if you could eliminate the accidental execution of the innocent?

(for example, in this case there is no way to dispute what he did)

I still don't think a government should have the power to kill.  I think all murders should be against the law, no matter the reason and no matter the killer.  I want criminals and governments to follow the same law: no murders, no executions, no torture.

Aaaaah, the classic dishonest misdirection of a death penalty opponent.

 



Yet, today, America's leaders are reenacting every folly that brought these great powers [Russia, Germany, and Japan] to ruin -- from arrogance and hubris, to assertions of global hegemony, to imperial overstretch, to trumpeting new 'crusades,' to handing out war guarantees to regions and countries where Americans have never fought before. We are piling up the kind of commitments that produced the greatest disasters of the twentieth century.
 — Pat Buchanan – A Republic, Not an Empire

The Ghost of RubangB on 02 April 2009
Tyrannical said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:
Tyrannical said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:


The death penalty costs way too much money. There are 2 ways to lower the costs: abolish the death penalty entirely, which will save tons of money (good) and never accidentally kill an innocent person again (very good), or allow for speedier executions with fewer appeals, which will save money (good), but leads to more accidental executions of the innocent (very bad).

So, if there was 100% certainty you wouldn't have a problem with it?

 

TheRealMafoo said:

What if you could eliminate the accidental execution of the innocent?

(for example, in this case there is no way to dispute what he did)

I still don't think a government should have the power to kill.  I think all murders should be against the law, no matter the reason and no matter the killer.  I want criminals and governments to follow the same law: no murders, no executions, no torture.

Aaaaah, the classic dishonest misdirection of a death penalty opponent.

How was I dishonest?  I want the government and the people to have the same laws.  What's wrong with that?  Add something to the discussion or go back under your bridge.

Several people have posted information proving that the death penalty does not deter crime and that it costs more money than life imprisonment.  The only real reason to support it is so people like you can feel the little tinglies in your belly when you get revenge against the bad guys.  And that's a childish and pathetic way to run a justice system.  And it kills innocent people.  Do you ignore that part or is it an acceptable loss?



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