I will say right here that Brawl was a very good step in the right direction. But we look for different things in this game. I thrive on the random elements. I love that I can't tell how my opponent is going to come at me in 10 seconds. I love knowing that at anytime my dash to kill an opponent can fail and get them a bit of breathing room. I have a very weird taste in games though, so I doubt many would agree with me on this one. I am just trying to give you perspective on how I see the game. The first Smash game was absolutely built around this principle, and Melee took it a bit away from that. In short, I do think that Brawl is a step in a good direction and in-line with previous games.

 Now, I am willing to say that Brawl took a step back from a competitive stand point in a lot of ways. I'd say the characters are a lot more balanced over-all, but it is still far from perfect naturally. The tripping removal is something I fully expect to be part of any major tournament coming up, and for good reason. The speed thing seems more a matter of personal prefence, but I will trust that the competitive community knows what it likes. If thats what they like, good for them. It might very well be the best version for them and anyone who wants to be a part of that. That doesn't make it the best version though, and claiming it does will do nothing but spark controversy over your incredible elitism.

 All that aside, there have been a lot of new things discovered in Brawl. New tricks and tips on how to play certain characters have been discovered and completely changed the balance of power. You list Ike as over-powered when he is pretty low tier. I don't think a single one of the characters you listed is even above mid-tier quite honestly. The current uber broken character is Meta-Knight and he is an offense machine. Hell there is more than a little bit of talk about banning MK from all tournaments because he might just be that broken*. All games evolve when played at a competitive level and people are playing Brawl in all its forms at a competitive level. This is not saying you suck at the game. I am just saying you are out of the loop, and the meta-game evolved past you. This happens to anyone no matter how good they are at the game.

 *Can anyone give me some link to show why MK is broken? A friend showed me a bunch of videos where top level players manage to fight on equal footing with MK being played by another top level player. I can trust people who have more experience than me, but I would like to at least get a chance to see what they are seeing.

I think the majority of the game's owners would agree with you on it, Gnizmo.

I do too.

Gnizmo....are you serious about MK not being broken. Do you really need to see a video of why MK is broken. Every SBR member gave him a perfect score in the tier list. Only "top player" i know of that is making MK look like an equal is Ninja Link's Diddy Kong. I don't ever see him not being number one, unless someone find a huge exploit. Why you think top players get in heated debates on whether or not he should be banned from tournies.

the funny thing about that is that diddy has a slight advantage against mk.  one of the few, but it just proves the point.

mk aside, the balance actually isnt better.  there are two matchups tied for worst: sheik v bowser in melee and sheik v ganon in brawl.  cpt is ridiculously bad as is ganon.  snake is almost god tier (like fox was in japan for a while).  it isnt a more balanced game despite what people originally thought (i did too)

Snake's tilt got disjointed hitboxes, got OP projectiles and MK can spam whorewind, down smash + gimp you.

snake's tilts are broken and he is the best camper.  also, i have seen one player do really well against MK's tornado and that was futile.  His wario was grabbing MK's MK quite a bit.  there is a small window where you can grab him if you time it right.  but yeah, everyone one MK's B moves can recover.....what is that. and his sword is waaayyy too long.

Consider me an elitist or not, what I really question myself here is why are we going around in circles again? Gnizmo, I appreciate your post and it makes a lot of sense to me. I will say that yes, I'm looking for a different experience with Brawl. Luckily, I'm not the only one thinking the same same things I wrote in this thread, thus the creation of this community project. I know that Melee is a sinking ship and there's no way around it, the hours and hours of fun I've had with this game will probably never come back to me again, but I think it's not too much to ask to be able to use the characters I've familiarized myself with and be good with them again?

Seriously, me and my friends have built a cult following with Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Link and Bowser ever since Melee arrived. Ever heard about the series "Ganon Knows Best" on Newgrounds? It's just fun to go play Melee while thinking that someone else thought the same things as us about these characters, meaning that Captain Falcon is apparently Ganondorf's son (because they're clones in Melee, hehe), Link is somehow the evil man that kills Captain Falcon's dad every time he comes back to life, etc. We barely take ourselves seriously while playing Melee, but when there's a time to, well, we go at it and the matches are excellent and fun. Heck, I even walk with Ganondorf and taunt in the middle of the fray just for the "lulz" and still win! xD

In Brawl... well, we all know what happened to those characters. Brawl+ allows me to do just what I wrote above again, that's why I'm promoting it here. Yes, believe it or not, Brawl+ can be fun too while bringing a better competitive level to the game. It's especially more fun if you're familiarized with Melee, there's no way no one cannot notice that.

So, apparently, what's really bugging people here is that I've used the word "definitive" in the thread title? Hmmm, I guess I never thought about all the meanings behind this word before (I barely ever use it). It could be the "definitive competitive" version of Super Smash Bros. Brawl, but to me, it doesn't make sense at all and it would still stir controversy. Hmmm... :/

With all this said, I will ask this: is this community ready for Brawl+?

disjointed my ass. amiright?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162635

/sarcasm.  the red lines are the distance between snake and where he hit link.  yes, he hit link in both of those.

 I am going to quote myself here just in the vain hope you follow me a little better this time. "I can trust people who have more experience than me, but I would like to at least get a chance to see what they are seeing." What I mean by that is I accept that MK is broken in the competitive scene. I have no reason to doubt that. I am not into that scene, and don't have a thousandth the experience that people claiming he is broken have. I was just wondering if it has ever been demonstrated in a way someone outside the scene could understand. The last guy who tried hurt his case more than helped it, but that is because he chose bad videos I am certain.

 @SCHMUP
 We are going in circles because I am not really disagreeing with you on any particular point. I am just trying to point out why people went haywire on you in this thread. You start off by saying your way of playing the game is the best, and then jump on people who beg to differ with slightly out of date facts. Brawl+ sounds great for a certain set of players and wish the project best of luck. The main reason I am replying is to bump your thread and let others know of its existence. The tone of the message is just a little harsh in places. Definitive was a bad choice. Probably would have gone better as "A more compettive version of SSBB." Of course thatline of questions is fairly pointless as the thread exists and is fine as is now that the fires are out.

 Edit: Oh and no this community won't want to participate in the Brawl+ large scale. This is mostly a less than competitive play community as I remember it. If I ever get around to installing it on my Wii (played it on a friends Wii who is into competitive play) I might dink around for a while, but last time I tried Brawl online I got majorly disapointed. The lag made me hate the game =(

@ gnizmo......the only way to know is experience. there are certain things you know from only playing the game alot. detailed info that takes time to learn. there are some things that people could point out very quickly such as priority, range, speed, recovery, and tornado/shuttle loop...and he also trumps the whole cast with maybe a few even match ups. anyways, the more you play the game the more you realize the technicalities of the matchups and the unfairness.