It's interesting that they talk about the "going through pain to reach a reward". Most gamers know this intuitively. When a game is too easy the reward feels like almost nothing. When a game is very hard the reward can be almost nothing also when compared to the reward one feels just by conquering or living through that pain and winning.

can you imagine Cliffy B sitting down with Perez Hilton and having this Convo ?!
that would be the western equivalent.

 How would that be the equivalent?

Cliffy B is a game developer, and im gathering is in some sort of management position at epic. And perez hiltion, like itoi, is a celevrity blogger.

Unlike Iwata and itoi though, they both struggle to string a sentence together.

Satoru Iwata is a game developer and current CEO of Nintendo, Shigesato Itoi was a game designer 

and is currently a copywriter and essayist.

7. The Programmer's Pattern of Logic

Itoi To me, it seems that your methodology has been consistent as a programmer, and as president of Nintendo. 

Iwata You think so? 

Itoi When the MOTHER 2 (EarthBound) project was about to fall apart, you came in to help, and this is what you said to us. "It will take 2 years to fix this keeping what you have built up. If we start from scratch, it will take only a year. What do you say?"

Iwata Yes, I remember. (laugh) 

Itoi We decided to start from scratch. You knew this was the best choice from the beginning though, didn't you? 

Iwata If I were to choose the best way at that time, yes, I would've started from scratch. But I wasn't in the project from the start, so I would've respected whatever decision you made. My task was to pull the project back together. Anyway, I think it was possible to do either way. 

Itoi You thought it was best to start from scratch, and still you would've have gone either way? 

Iwata It was important not to ruin the atmosphere of the project team. You can't show up all of a sudden and destroy everything people have created until then. People aren't persuaded by such ways. The positive atmosphere of the team is crucial in order to succeed. I decided it was best to present the team with suggestions, and have them take the pick. 

Itoi Now I understand. When you joined the team the first thing you did was to make tools. There were huge problems left unsolved, but you didn't touch them. It seemed to us you weren't doing anything productive, but actually you were creating tools to solve those problems.

Iwata Right. 

Itoi (to the staffs) What he did was really interesting. He didn't try to solve the problems one by one. He made a tool, and said to us "Here's a tool that you all can use", and assigned us which parts to build with that tool. Now that the tool was there, all we had to do was to get down to work.

Iwata Yes, I remember. 

Itoi Experiencing those times, I see you doing the same as president of Nintendo. You made a new department when Nintendo DS came out, right? 

Iwata Yes. There already was a department that was in charge of Nintendo DS, but I made a new one, and assigned them with an important task. This department later designs games such as "Brain Age" and "DS English Training". I didn't foresee this at the time though. 

Itoi When I heard about this later on, I thought it was the same way you put MOTHER 2 (EarthBound) back on track. 

Iwata Well, not so much of a variation there (laugh), or you can take the positive side and say that there's consistency. 

Itoi Actually, I don't believe that people can have that much of a variation in their logical patterns. 

Iwata Maybe not. 

Itoi I think you established your logical pattern as a programmer, and have been making use of it ever since. 

Iwata Maybe. Programming is pure logic. It won't work if there's an inconsistency in the logic. The errors aren't produced inside the system. They are produced from the outside. If the system doesn't work, it's definitely your fault. The funny thing is that every programmer thinks his logic will work when they finish coding a program. It never does, but at that moment, everyone believes there's no error in the logic they have written, and confidently hits the "Enter" key.

Itoi (to Sato, the system engineer) Is that true?

Sato Very true. (laugh) 

Iwata The world of programming is all logic. If it doesn't work, you're the one to blame. I also apply this to communication among people. If my message isn't conveyed as intended, I search for the reason on my side, and not blame the other. 

Itoi Ah. 

Iwata If it doesn't work, you're the reason for it. If there's miscommunication between someone, I don't blame them for not understanding. There are always factors on my side. Having been a programmer enables me to think this way. 

Itoi All in all, logical patterns can't be learned through books. 

Iwata You can't really learn something if it's not related to what you do. Handling troubles in your project is much a higher priority than trying to study something irrelevant to you. 

Itoi Probably because it gives you that stimulus pleasure, too. 

Iwata I like flying down with an umbrella to where people seem lost. Just like how it was with the "MOTHER 2" (EarthBound) project. (laugh) 

Itoi (to the staffs) You know.... I think he really enjoys it.

All (laugh) 

Hahaha, damn that's good stuff. I think it really shows that *any* industry needs guys like Iwata. :) (Where's a cloning machine when you need it?)

8. The King and the Slave

Itoi Bringing the subject back to Mr.Miyamoto, his premise when creating something seems to be "Don't think your consumers are willing to understand your points", and I feel this is very close to how I think. I often say that "dis-communication is the premise of communication." The consumers are not your family, they're more like people passing by on the streets. But I want what I create to be understood by everyone, just like Mr.Miyamoto wants his games to be enjoyable from the start.

Iwata Uh-huh.

Itoi I think creation starts from a despairing cry from within, "Will no one love me?"

Iwata That's the same for us. The consumers are not "not that much interested" in our games, they're "completely not interested" in the beginning. We need to bring them to a state where they pick up our product and smile, where they come to love it. That's the battle we're fighting, and we want to win it.

Itoi "Will no one love me?" may sound low self esteemed, but that's the only place where you can really start.

Iwata It makes me remember the story you told us before, when you came to HAL Laboratory. The story of "the King and the Slave".

Itoi The story that it's the King who needs to be educated, right?

Iwata Yes.

Itoi (to the staffs) This is a good one.

All (laugh)

Iwata Seriously, it's a good story. It's about the relation between the creator and the customer. The king isn't the creator. He's the customer. The king is free to say anything about what is given to him, that it's boring, or that he doesn't understand it, or even decline the offer. He has the privilege of being super selfish. The slave has to think how to satisfy the king, how to make him happy. Mr.Itoi's point was to understand that the job of the slave is intellectual and interesting.

Itoi The same can be said about relationships, the one who makes the approach, and the other.

Iwata The initiative lies in the other.

Itoi Exactly. The one who takes action can never take the initiative. For example, when you ask someone to perform a task for you, you have to think about whether you'll take it if it was offered to you. When you work for someone, it usually involves hard work. People work hard because you think it's worth it, and that's the only way people will put in their full energy into it. So you always have to think, "will I accept this job if it was offered to me?" You need that point of view. If the creator's not aware of that point of view, he starts to misconceive that he is the king. If the consumers don't act as king, the creator is deprived of the opportunity to improve. When the creators don't improve, the customers will get easily bored of what they get. And that's the end of it. It seems that this malignant cycle seems to be increasing. The consumers get bored very easily.

Iwata The speed of things getting out of date has become extremely fast.

Itoi If you just keep on responding to the customer's requests, you're not going to come up with something with quality. What Nintendo has been doing since they came out with DS is to keep bringing something new to the kings, who were tired of games that were a mere extension of traditional and conventional ones. Plus, Nintendo made it so that the kings understood it. It's just amazing, what you did.

Iwata Thank you.

Itoi Everyone thinks Wii is such a success, but Nintendo hasn't become overproud of it. Actually, I don't think I ever heard you say "Wii is a success."

Iwata Not yet.

Itoi Not yet, I see.

Iwata It's a good start. It's been a good start, but it's only the beginning.

Itoi (laughing) Is that so.

Iwata We want to have the customers continue playing. We want to continue coming up with new proposals to them, and have them keep playing. Only then can we say that we've accomplished our goals.

Itoi That's a great point of view, very objective too.

Iwata We've been preparing to make things happen.

Itoi I'm sure you have new plans coming up.

Iwata We need to see if our new approaches will grab the customer's hearts, if they will keep on playing our games. The answer's not out yet, but I believe we're getting there.