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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Conversations between Satoru Iwata and Shigesato Itoi

It was about six months ago, when it still was cold outside. Mr. Iwata, president of Nintendo came to our office. Mr. Iwata and Shigesato Itoi are old friends. He helped us start up "Hobonichi". Sometimes, when he visits Tokyo on his business travels from Kyoto, Mr. Iwata drops by our office after work.

One day, Itoi got a call from Mr. Iwata that he'll stop by. Itoi suggested everyone to eat together, so we ordered delivery and had a nice supper.   

What he talked about that small meal was astonishingly interesting, we decided to put it together as an article. (Luckily we have a culture of recording interesting conversations.)

Please enjoy the 11 articles from that evening. 

 

1. The Definition of Idea 

Itoi Remember talking about the definition of "idea" before?

Iwata The words of Mr.(Shigeru) Miyamoto, right?

Itoi He said that ideas are "something which solves multiple issues at once". This notion seemed eye-opening to my staffs. Can you explain us a bit more about the intention of his words, and your analysis of it?

Iwata Those words came out when we were designing a video game software. I think Mr.Miyamoto said it as an example of a method for designing video games. I actually perceive this as a very versatile concept, which can be applied to many aspects of life. 

Itoi Uh-huh.

Iwata There's always the dilemma of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" when creating something. There are options that improve the product, and there are also options that work the other way. The thing is that you barely have cases in which there exists only a single problem. You usually have problems occurring everywhere, lots of them. 

Itoi Yes, yes.

Iwata I'm not talking solely about designing a product. The same happens in organizations, or in personal relationships. Presenting a single antidote for a single problem doesn't get you anywhere. It always causes side effects. It sometimes even raises trouble to issues which were fine until then. People come up with many suggestions, but usually it only gives a solution to a single problem, and only that. A project doesn't advance much with a solution like that. 

Itoi I know what you mean.

Iwata Often times, the game not being entertaining enough are the problems you face when designing video games. The more ideas put in, the more fun it brings forth, and people enjoy the game more. However, the amount of time and human resources that can be put into creation is always limited. It's not realistic to simply propose "more" of something when you have limitations. Sometimes, one single idea solves one problem, then another, and even issues that were thought to be totally unrelated.

Itoi That does happen sometimes. (to the staffs) Interesting, isn't it? 

All (laugh) 

Iwata Mr.Miyamoto is constantly trying to find that kind of "idea". I mean, constantly. Persistently. One day he called me up suddenly, it was when I used to live in Yamanashi. (Mr.Iwata had been president of HAL Laboratory, Inc., which is located in Yamanashi Prefecture) Do you know what the first thing he said was?

"I got it!"

(laughing) I had no idea what he was talking about.

Itoi (laugh) 

Iwata What he "got" was an idea for a game we were designing together. This idea was something that solved multiple issues, all at once. 

Itoi That's what he called an "idea". 

Iwata Exactly. One single inspiration that makes so many things work. That's what you call a "great idea", and finding that moves things forward, moves it towards the goal. Mr. Miyamoto thinks that it's the game director's task to find those "ideas". 

Itoi He didn't actually say this, right? You've picked this up working with him for a long time, observing his ways. 

Iwata Yes. I've seen him "get it" many times. Through those instances, I've come to learn his emphasis on that method, and how he guides projects to goals using that method. 

Itoi That's really interesting. (laugh) 

Iwata This really isn't limited to game design. The world is full of "damned if you do, damned if you don'ts". You call it "trade-off". Everyone is confronted with trade-offs. The more budget, the better. The more human resource, the better. The more time, the better. That's obvious. However, doing the obvious means doing the same thing with everyone else. That doesn't nurture competitiveness. 

Itoi It becomes a matter of who does it more. 

Iwata But when you find a solution by combining issues, the more unique it is, the more value it brings. When Mr.Miyamoto said "that's what you call an idea", it came to me. It's such a concept that applies to various aspects of life, so I really wanted to incorporate it into my way of thinking. I remember talking about this the other time we met. 

Itoi If you're looking for a solution that solves only a single issue, and not multiple issues, it's easy. 

Iwata It really is. 

Itoi (Pointing at Sato sitting next to him, and Nagata sitting across him)

See, if Sato's life is in danger, it's easy to find a way to save him at the cost of Nagata's life. The more leeway an enterprise or an organization has, the more they tend to choose such solutions. They solve issues one by one. First they save Sato, then they realize Nagata's in danger, so they choose to save Nagata, and on and on.

Iwata By putting in an endless amount of time and energy. 

Itoi Exactly. 

Iwata Everyone can solve problems one by one. "If there's too much of something, just make it less", or the other way around. That's just responding to each issue. For example, if a customer complained at a restaurant that a dish is "too much", what is he/she really saying? Maybe the real problem may be how the dish tastes, and not the amount. 

All Ah.... 

Iwata If the chef only sees the amount of his dish as the problem, changing the amount doesn't solve anything. He has to be able to find the real issue and improve the taste to truly solve this problem.

Itoi That's true. 

Iwata When you dig deep down until you hit the root of the problem, you sometimes find that what seems to be isolated matters are actually connected. A single change can have impact on matters that were thought having no relation. Different problems can be solved at once. When a single idea solves various matters, those are the times when Mr.Miyamoto "get it", and calls you up all of a sudden. You have a much clearer vision when you "get it".

I got this from here: http://www.1101.com/iwata/index.html

The rest of the article will be posted in the following days, one part on each day.     



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intresting.



I wonder what Mr.Miyamoto's idea was...



This is what Nintendo being the only gaming company in the hardware business means to me. The other companies promote people from the VCR business or whatever to handle their gaming divisions, while Nintendo's top brass consists of actual game developers.



This is what Nintendo brings to the table, that is pretty much unique - and why I love them so much. Its a unique approach, a way of solving problems (including game design issues). I love it :)



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I know its a translation thing but these transcripts always come off as polished and worked on.

Either way its a far cry from Sony and MS exec quotes =P



To Each Man, Responsibility

The second part is up.

2. View Things over Someone Else's Shoulder

Itoi Mr. Miyamoto said that an idea is "something which solves multiple issues", and you mentioned that it opened your eyes to a new way of thinking. However, as a programmer, I'm sure you have solved problems in the same way?

Iwata Actually, yes. Fixing a bug in a program often solves many problems, or visa versa.

Itoi Does everyone who has studied in the science field experience such way of utilizing "single ideas"?

Iwata There are people who solve problems via symptomatic treatments, of course. Such as "Let's turn down the air conditioner since it's hot", or "I'll drink some water because I'm thirsty". People like this may actually be the majority.

Itoi I see.

Iwata I don't think it's a matter of coming from the science field. I think it's just the type of person you are. There are those who are satisfied knowing that thirst is the reason for wanting something to drink, and there are those who want to unfold the cause of their thirst.

Itoi I wonder where that difference comes from. Where those two types branch.

Iwata I have a nature of pursuing the reason of things.

Itoi I know you do. (laugh)

Iwata (laughing) Yes, as you know very well. During my initial years as a video game designer, when the game I created didn't sell as expected, I would look for the reason why. Technologically, my game wasn't inferior to others, but it didn't sell as much.

Itoi Uh-huh. (laugh)

Iwata But the games Mr.Miyamoto designed sold like crazy. I mean, its sales were multiplied by dozens compared to that of the game I designed.

Itoi But the quality of the technology of the game wasn't much different, right?

Iwata Well, at least that was what I thought. But the facts were clear. His game just sold much more.

Itoi I'm sure there are many people who draw the conclusion that their games are just as good as Mr.Miyamoto's.

Iwata But I wanted my games to become popular, just like his.

Itoi I like how you think. (laugh)

Iwata My piece of work wasn't popular as his. Everyone seemed to be playing his game. That's frustrating. Frustration made me observe closely. What was the difference between him and me? This wasn't an easy question to answer.

Itoi It must have been difficult.

Iwata After starting to work with Mr.Miyamoto for a while, I started to see. I was only looking from the "designer's point of view", but he was different. His aim does have a higher percentage of becoming a hit, but he does make mistakes. After all he's not God, you know. The difference lies in how he corrects his mistakes. He brings an employee who has nothing to do with the game he's designing, and hands him/her the controller and says, "Go ahead, try it." This was before he was acknowledged as a renowned video game designer, when he still was assistant manager or manager.

Itoi (laughing) When he was "The world-class assistant manager".

Iwata (laughing) Yes, he was "The world-class assistant manager" for quite a long time.

Itoi (laughing) Yes, quite long.

Iwata So he hands him/her the controller and tells him/her to go at it, and all he does is watch him/her from behind. I used to call it "Mr. Miyamoto's View over Someone Else's Shoulder". I didn't realize how important it was until I started to work with him. Only then it occurred to me that this was it. We're not able to go to customers explaining the details of the game's intention, or how they should enjoy it.

Itoi Of course not.

Iwata The product is all you've got. But a product is incomplete when it comes to explaining something in detail. Every detail of the design of the game is not always understood by the players. 

Itoi Mr.Miyamoto is trying to find that gap through his "View over Someone Else's Shoulder".

Iwata Exactly. He watches them play and checks in detail how they respond, playing it without any previous knowledge. He finds out what they don't understand, what they let past, which triggers they miss. There are tons you can find from the view from behind. However experienced he may be, he never drops the notion that "if the players don't understand it, there's fault in the design I made".

Itoi How interesting.

Iwata It's easy to say it's the "customer's point of view" that counts, but it's the fact that he drew a method of how to find it very early. On the other hand, I was interested whether my program was cool or not, but not really aware of the players' response.

Itoi So at the time, you thought you were cool.

Iwata Actually, yes. (laugh) I, the novice game designer, thought I was cool.

Itoi "The program works, and it looks cool too", right?

Iwata (laughing) Must have been like that. Mr.Miyamoto's way came upon me as a total shock. I remember going back to my office and writing a report on it, how his method works, and it being the reason we can't win.

Itoi Like Kaishu Katsu on Kanrin-maru, seeing America for the fist time.

Iwata Ha ha ha. In those days, there were few people around me who understood this concept. A lot of times I ended up thinking all by myself.

Itoi Those pursuit for the reason why must have made you who you are today.

Iwata I think so.



Awesome read, very neat.



what intelligent people



Can't wait for the next 9, these techniques and insights are really useful and interesting for me, as I am hoping to venture into game developing after I am through with my current course