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Forums - Gaming Discussion - 360 CPU and Cell are fairly equal according to Dave Shippy

joeorc on 24 February 2009
Fishie said:
joeorc said:
Fishie said:
joeorc said:
Fishie said:
joeorc said:
NJ5 said:

@Procastinato: So now most engine programmers are newbs? That's like the "developers are lazy" argument, it completely ignores one of the most important matters of game development - cost. Time equals money, the Cell equals more invested time in engine programming, which equals more money spent.

It's not that developers are lazy or stupid, it's that they have limited time and budget. Sony needs to learn that lesson and make developer-friendly consoles.

 

it's not like that, yes more time does mean more money..but also it mean's you as a developer will not be prepaired for the next trend in Microprocessor's..like the Cell processor..if you look at the way the New processor's from Intel,Ati,Nvidia and Amd, IBM, STI they are all producing

CPU/GPU combo chip's it's learn it now or later ..that's the developer's choice, some are learning it now

 

 Why do you keep talking about stuff you dont understand and stuff like STI(Sony bailed out of the project, look it up so even Sony gave up on CELL)that no longer exists?

 

o'l brother..bailing..huh, look who happen's to hold patent's on the Cell processor, and guess what Sony can just buy chip's off of Toshiba

or build another plant and produce them their selves if Sony wanted too....you act like the Cell is a Failure..god you are dense

-beer is on tap

 

Sony has sold their chip facilities to Toshiba for cheap because they could no longer finance the losses.

Toshiba now holds more patents to CELL then Sony AND is making them for Sony and themselves.

Apart from the PS3 Toshiba is also the only company actually putting CELL in a consumer product because hey they have it so why not use it.

Toshiba and IBM hold all the cards here, Sony has none left. Sony cant demand further development of CELL because they abandoned the project themselves, Sony cant expect economies of scale to lower the price of CELL and is at the mercy of Toshiba since they have no fabrication facilities left nor the money to start any(that entire thing with being in debt several billion dollars and all you know).

 

In short the future of CELL is screwed and so is Sony with regards to CELL.

 

40% share's = sony is screwed in reguard's to the Cell

WOW....

link's

o'l you mean this: Sony, Toshiba finalize transfer of Cell chip production

 

Date: October, 2007


October 18, 2007 - Making official what had been reported for weeks, Sony and Toshiba have announced an agreement to transfer Sony's Cell microprocessor production lines to Toshiba under a new joint venture, reportedly at a price approaching 100 billion yen (about US $870 million).

 

Sony, Toshiba finalize transfer of Cell chip production

Date: October, 2007


October 18, 2007 - Making official what had been reported for weeks, Sony and Toshiba have announced an agreement to transfer Sony's Cell microprocessor production lines to Toshiba under a new joint venture, reportedly at a price approaching 100 billion yen (about US $870 million).

The deal involves setting up a JV majority owned by Toshiba (60%), with 20% stakes each by Sony and Sony Computer Entertainment Inc., to take over 300mm lines at Sony Semiconductor Kyushu Corp.'s Fab 2 at the Nagasaki Technology Center, by the end of the current fiscal year (March 2008). The as-yet-unnamed JV, capitalized at 100M yen (US ~$857K) with top execs appointed by both sides (chairman/ and CEO by Toshiba, president and COO by Sony), will make chips for the Playstation 3 system using 300mm/65nm and eventually 45nm mass production.

As part of the deal, Toshiba also will take over assets from another Toshiba-Sony JV, Oita TS Semiconductor Corp., formed in 1999 to make chips for the Playstation 2 system, and slated to expire at the end of this fiscal year. Toshiba also will purchase Sony's manufacturing equipment for making its RSX image-processing chips for the PS3, made in the firm's Oita plant, for about 30B yen (~$257M), reports the Nikkei daily.

http://www.solid-state.com/articles/article_display.html?id=309463

 

 Your Google skills are impressive.

 

Now go Google what happened to the last remaining Sony chip manufacturing facility, then google some more as to what the Sony plans are going forward from here on.

 

You wont like what TEH GOOGLE might tell you.

 

well since you have already done that Link's please:

what plant are you talking about..fab 3?



I AM BOLO

100% lover "nothing else matter's" after that...

ps:

Proud psOne/2/3/p owner.  I survived Aplcalyps3 and all I got was this lousy Signature.

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Baggins on 24 February 2009

You can't beat Fishie, don't bother trying little sproget.



joeorc on 24 February 2009
Baggins said:
nen-suer said:
BrayanA said:
Gh0st4lifE said:
360s' CPU FAIRLY EQUAL TO PS3s' CPU

PS3s' GPU FAIRLY EQUAL TO 360s' GPU

360 is easier to program

BRs' transfer rate < DVDs'

-------------------------------

What else ?

Fixed

 

 

Transfer rate ''HD DVD < DVD < CD''

Wii easier to program than Xbox360

Fixed ver 2.00

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha....

 

What are you talking about CD transfer rate isn't faster than DVD. Don't tell me you think because CD's fastest drives are around 50x and DVD's around 20x....

 

lol

 

Base (1×) and (current) maximum speeds by generation
GenerationBaseMax
(Mbit/s)(Mbit/s)×
1st (CD) 1.17 65.62 56×
2nd (DVD) 10.55 210.94 20×
3rd (BD) 36 432 12× [2]

 

The DVD drive on the Xbox 360 is rated at 7x at the centre to 12x at outer edge, the Bluray drive on the PS3 is rated at 2x

 

Let's assume maximum 56x transfer for CD (outer edge) and what, 24x for the inner circle?, and work this out...

 

CD = 28.08 - 65.52 = 46.8mbit

PS3 = 72mbit

Xbox 360 = 73.85 - 126.6mbit Average = 100.225mbit

 

I've actually been pretty tight on the Xbox 360 here as since the transfer rate is variable, assets that need it will be placed on the outer edge of the disc, and assets that don't need to be loaded as fast say for streaming and music would be placed at the inner edge. With the Playstation 3 your stuck with 72mbits wherever your data is on the disc. Not only that but seek times on Bluray drives are much much higher than on DVD drives.

Conclusion? Leave being clever to people with facts to back up their answer ;)

yea the dvd reader in the xbox360

min speed: 5.0x

min transfer rate 6,923,077 Bytes/sec

Average speed: 8.5x

Average transfer rate :11,769,231 Bytes/sec

an if the Disc is not full the Average speed will be lower, the Min is reading the start of any disc

the 12x is only when reaching the outer most part of the disc



I AM BOLO

100% lover "nothing else matter's" after that...

ps:

Proud psOne/2/3/p owner.  I survived Aplcalyps3 and all I got was this lousy Signature.

Fishie on 24 February 2009
joeorc said:
Fishie said:
joeorc said:
Fishie said:
joeorc said:
Fishie said:
joeorc said:
NJ5 said:

@Procastinato: So now most engine programmers are newbs? That's like the "developers are lazy" argument, it completely ignores one of the most important matters of game development - cost. Time equals money, the Cell equals more invested time in engine programming, which equals more money spent.

It's not that developers are lazy or stupid, it's that they have limited time and budget. Sony needs to learn that lesson and make developer-friendly consoles.

 

it's not like that, yes more time does mean more money..but also it mean's you as a developer will not be prepaired for the next trend in Microprocessor's..like the Cell processor..if you look at the way the New processor's from Intel,Ati,Nvidia and Amd, IBM, STI they are all producing

CPU/GPU combo chip's it's learn it now or later ..that's the developer's choice, some are learning it now

 

 Why do you keep talking about stuff you dont understand and stuff like STI(Sony bailed out of the project, look it up so even Sony gave up on CELL)that no longer exists?

 

o'l brother..bailing..huh, look who happen's to hold patent's on the Cell processor, and guess what Sony can just buy chip's off of Toshiba

or build another plant and produce them their selves if Sony wanted too....you act like the Cell is a Failure..god you are dense

-beer is on tap

 

Sony has sold their chip facilities to Toshiba for cheap because they could no longer finance the losses.

Toshiba now holds more patents to CELL then Sony AND is making them for Sony and themselves.

Apart from the PS3 Toshiba is also the only company actually putting CELL in a consumer product because hey they have it so why not use it.

Toshiba and IBM hold all the cards here, Sony has none left. Sony cant demand further development of CELL because they abandoned the project themselves, Sony cant expect economies of scale to lower the price of CELL and is at the mercy of Toshiba since they have no fabrication facilities left nor the money to start any(that entire thing with being in debt several billion dollars and all you know).

 

In short the future of CELL is screwed and so is Sony with regards to CELL.

 

40% share's = sony is screwed in reguard's to the Cell

WOW....

link's

o'l you mean this: Sony, Toshiba finalize transfer of Cell chip production

 

Date: October, 2007


October 18, 2007 - Making official what had been reported for weeks, Sony and Toshiba have announced an agreement to transfer Sony's Cell microprocessor production lines to Toshiba under a new joint venture, reportedly at a price approaching 100 billion yen (about US $870 million).

 

Sony, Toshiba finalize transfer of Cell chip production

Date: October, 2007


October 18, 2007 - Making official what had been reported for weeks, Sony and Toshiba have announced an agreement to transfer Sony's Cell microprocessor production lines to Toshiba under a new joint venture, reportedly at a price approaching 100 billion yen (about US $870 million).

The deal involves setting up a JV majority owned by Toshiba (60%), with 20% stakes each by Sony and Sony Computer Entertainment Inc., to take over 300mm lines at Sony Semiconductor Kyushu Corp.'s Fab 2 at the Nagasaki Technology Center, by the end of the current fiscal year (March 2008). The as-yet-unnamed JV, capitalized at 100M yen (US ~$857K) with top execs appointed by both sides (chairman/ and CEO by Toshiba, president and COO by Sony), will make chips for the Playstation 3 system using 300mm/65nm and eventually 45nm mass production.

As part of the deal, Toshiba also will take over assets from another Toshiba-Sony JV, Oita TS Semiconductor Corp., formed in 1999 to make chips for the Playstation 2 system, and slated to expire at the end of this fiscal year. Toshiba also will purchase Sony's manufacturing equipment for making its RSX image-processing chips for the PS3, made in the firm's Oita plant, for about 30B yen (~$257M), reports the Nikkei daily.

http://www.solid-state.com/articles/article_display.html?id=309463

 

 Your Google skills are impressive.

 

Now go Google what happened to the last remaining Sony chip manufacturing facility, then google some more as to what the Sony plans are going forward from here on.

 

You wont like what TEH GOOGLE might tell you.

 

well since you have already done that Link's please:

what plant are you talking about..fab 3?

Sony doesnt have a single facility left.

Nothing, nada.

On April first last year on they sold their last one to Toshiba.

 



Fishie on 24 February 2009

Anyways, its 5am over here.

Off to bed, might check tommorow since this thread is quite amusing.



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heruamon on 24 February 2009
Fishie said:
Anyways, its 5am over here.

Off to bed, might check tommorow since this thread is quite amusing.

Have a cold one, before hitting the sack!



"...You can't kill ideas with a sword, and you can't sink belief structures with a broadside. You defeat them by making them change..."

- From By Schism Rent Asunder

Procrastinato on 24 February 2009

This is really OT, this BD/DVD/CD discussion, but why is it relevant? All of those storage mediums are weak, at best, at streaming data in real-time. Since its a technical requirement that no 360 game requires a HDD, or even benefits from anything other than a full install on the HDD, the PS3 has an advantage in this dept. A HDD for streaming is pretty handy, and reasonably fast. DVD.. no.

Any games which stream data off the 360 DVD are probably forced to require an install on the PS3 HDD due to speed issues, but conversely, DVD streaming is pathetic compared to HDD streaming. I imagine crossplatform devs rely upon DVD streaming as little as possible, for this reason. PS3 exclusives have the advantage of being able to use a HDD, and that's a big boon, if you need fast streaming.

In other words... who really cares about the transfer rates of any slow optical device, which is used only as a crutch when no faster method is available, due to lowest-common denominator technical requirements (like on the 360)?



 

joeorc on 24 February 2009
Fishie said:
joeorc said:
Fishie said:
joeorc said:
Fishie said:
joeorc said:
Fishie said:
joeorc said:
NJ5 said:

@Procastinato: So now most engine programmers are newbs? That's like the "developers are lazy" argument, it completely ignores one of the most important matters of game development - cost. Time equals money, the Cell equals more invested time in engine programming, which equals more money spent.

It's not that developers are lazy or stupid, it's that they have limited time and budget. Sony needs to learn that lesson and make developer-friendly consoles.

 

it's not like that, yes more time does mean more money..but also it mean's you as a developer will not be prepaired for the next trend in Microprocessor's..like the Cell processor..if you look at the way the New processor's from Intel,Ati,Nvidia and Amd, IBM, STI they are all producing

CPU/GPU combo chip's it's learn it now or later ..that's the developer's choice, some are learning it now

 

 Why do you keep talking about stuff you dont understand and stuff like STI(Sony bailed out of the project, look it up so even Sony gave up on CELL)that no longer exists?

 

o'l brother..bailing..huh, look who happen's to hold patent's on the Cell processor, and guess what Sony can just buy chip's off of Toshiba

or build another plant and produce them their selves if Sony wanted too....you act like the Cell is a Failure..god you are dense

-beer is on tap

 

Sony has sold their chip facilities to Toshiba for cheap because they could no longer finance the losses.

Toshiba now holds more patents to CELL then Sony AND is making them for Sony and themselves.

Apart from the PS3 Toshiba is also the only company actually putting CELL in a consumer product because hey they have it so why not use it.

Toshiba and IBM hold all the cards here, Sony has none left. Sony cant demand further development of CELL because they abandoned the project themselves, Sony cant expect economies of scale to lower the price of CELL and is at the mercy of Toshiba since they have no fabrication facilities left nor the money to start any(that entire thing with being in debt several billion dollars and all you know).

 

In short the future of CELL is screwed and so is Sony with regards to CELL.

 

40% share's = sony is screwed in reguard's to the Cell

WOW....

link's

o'l you mean this: Sony, Toshiba finalize transfer of Cell chip production

 

Date: October, 2007


October 18, 2007 - Making official what had been reported for weeks, Sony and Toshiba have announced an agreement to transfer Sony's Cell microprocessor production lines to Toshiba under a new joint venture, reportedly at a price approaching 100 billion yen (about US $870 million).

 

Sony, Toshiba finalize transfer of Cell chip production

Date: October, 2007


October 18, 2007 - Making official what had been reported for weeks, Sony and Toshiba have announced an agreement to transfer Sony's Cell microprocessor production lines to Toshiba under a new joint venture, reportedly at a price approaching 100 billion yen (about US $870 million).

The deal involves setting up a JV majority owned by Toshiba (60%), with 20% stakes each by Sony and Sony Computer Entertainment Inc., to take over 300mm lines at Sony Semiconductor Kyushu Corp.'s Fab 2 at the Nagasaki Technology Center, by the end of the current fiscal year (March 2008). The as-yet-unnamed JV, capitalized at 100M yen (US ~$857K) with top execs appointed by both sides (chairman/ and CEO by Toshiba, president and COO by Sony), will make chips for the Playstation 3 system using 300mm/65nm and eventually 45nm mass production.

As part of the deal, Toshiba also will take over assets from another Toshiba-Sony JV, Oita TS Semiconductor Corp., formed in 1999 to make chips for the Playstation 2 system, and slated to expire at the end of this fiscal year. Toshiba also will purchase Sony's manufacturing equipment for making its RSX image-processing chips for the PS3, made in the firm's Oita plant, for about 30B yen (~$257M), reports the Nikkei daily.

http://www.solid-state.com/articles/article_display.html?id=309463

 

 Your Google skills are impressive.

 

Now go Google what happened to the last remaining Sony chip manufacturing facility, then google some more as to what the Sony plans are going forward from here on.

 

You wont like what TEH GOOGLE might tell you.

 

well since you have already done that Link's please:

what plant are you talking about..fab 3?

Sony doesnt have a single facility left.

Nothing, nada.

On April first last year on they sold their last one to Toshiba.

 

it's not any problem for microsoft and Nintendo to buy Chip's from other companies

for any production of Cell  chip's So What

like i said Sony at a later time "could" start another fab plant would they prob. not

hell Sony dropped 1.6 Billion in to that fab plant when they bought it.

Sony along with Toshiba are in a

JOINT VENTURE

Sony still Own's 40% stock in the Venture

So Toshiba would close down a chip production plant that has these chip's that are already in Toshiba laptop's, going in to TV, Cell phone's. and still Sony is going to keep buying them for more PS3's. if there was no demand for the Chip that's one thing, but there is demand for the chip, server's Dept of Defense.          
   

 



I AM BOLO

100% lover "nothing else matter's" after that...

ps:

Proud psOne/2/3/p owner.  I survived Aplcalyps3 and all I got was this lousy Signature.

Ascended_Saiyan3 on 25 February 2009
Procrastinato said:
I would wager that the "60%" number is actually near the max that any game will ever honestly use, with regards to the SPEs, unless it is designed around massively parallel concepts.

Its just not possible to keep that many cores busy at times in a game application. However, in regards to the "Xenon vs Cell" debate, the Cell still has the advantage over the Xenon, when it *does* come to those shotgun-prone parallel tasks, and otherwise, it's pretty much the same. Heck the PPU is practically the same processor as a single core of the Xenon -- designed by the same guy, even, according to this article... although I think the article actually states that he led the PPU team... not the Cell team as a whole. In other words, he wasn't the guy actually responsible for the parallelism concepts of the Cell -- he's is part of the supporting cast. Still, I'm sure he knows his stuff.

Alot of the time, the PPU is basically identical to the Xenon... and then when its parallel-time, the Cell blows the Xenon away, because the Xenon has 2 buddies@3.2 GHz, and the Cell has 6.

You lost that wager before you even made it.  Uncharted 2 will use near 100% of the clock cycles of the Cell.  NOW, don't get this confused with 100% of the total power of the PS3.  The REAL boost in speed comes from vectorizing there code.  Naughty Dog has just finally been able to migrate all their systems over to the SPEs.  Here is the link:

http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/693071/Uncharted-Territory-The-Evan-Wells-and-Amy-Hennig-Uncharted-2-Interview.html

 



Ascended_Saiyan3 on 25 February 2009
Legend11 said:
Procrastinato said:

Yes, even the Cell, the first such processor, kicks the Xenon's ass... in the hands of a badass programmer.  The Xenon rules all in the hands of a newb <-- which describes a LOT of game programmers.

 

Funny you should say that...  The following was stated by John Carmack in a interview he gave yesterday:

"And there is a little bit of least common denominator-ing, where usually the PS3 becomes the sticky point in terms of [being] a little bit slower on the graphics, you’ve got a little bit of less memory to deal with but a little bit more processing power. So you kind of have to balance the things between all of that."

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2009/02/24/john-carmack-talks-possible-wii-development-iphone-doom-4-more/

Do you really think Carmack has migrated all his code over to the SPEs?  I mean Naughty Dog is a 1st party developer and they JUST have been able to migrate their systems over to the SPEs (and that's not even optimized).  Just look at Uncharted 2 DIRECT FEED screenshot.

http://playstation.joystiq.com/photos/uncharted-2/1313471//full

No one has seen anything like that in-game.

Team Ninja says the PS3 is the most powerful system out there.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3836/team_ninja_ready_for_more.php