There is a proven theory in psychology that a (typically repeated) fantasy about performing an action has a similar effect on the subconscious as actually performing the action itself; this works in good ways as well as bad ways because a psychologist can use it to help someone with their phobia through focused imagination, at the same time though child pornography allows paedophiles to build their appetite and cross boundaries which would be less likely in the absence of child pornography.

Now, I'm not sure that the ESRB is focusing on the right thing with their ratings ... I do not believe that the graphic nature of the outcome is nearly as important as the action that is performed itself.

Thats just fucking insane.

The world is full of morons.

Was Fight Club or 300 appropriate for families and movie fans.

 I see where you are coming from on this, but I have to ask you what insignificantly small section of the population are we going to cater to next?  People should not be asked to give up freedoms to suit the needs of what is probably less than 1% of 1% of the population.  I won't claim to have exact stats(perhaps someone could dig these up?) but I see no reason that such a small minority should be the cause of censoring/filtering my entertainment.

I don't think you can censor/ban/blame games for these disturbed people going off any more than you can blame a lighter for a firecracker blowing off somebodies finger.  The problem is not the lighter it's the irresonsible person not handling the fireworks properly.  

I've 20 years and I can't buy Manhunt 2 because someone SENSORED it...
fucking dictatorial world...

what was wrong with fight club and 300? I don't even recall those movies as being that bad compared to some of the other blood infested crap they dish out nowadays

Its a really interesting topic IMO.

There is a distinct difference between watching a horrific movie - say some serial killer movie - and actually playing a game where you ARE the serial killer.

When watching, you mentally can take the position of anyone in the movie - you can appreciate what they are feeling, their emotions, etc. This includes the people being attacked as much as the attacker. It may come down to someones personality who they emphasise more with - but most people will feel sadness/remorse (at some level) for the people being attacked (depending on the movie of course).

With a game, I think its quite different. Its one thing to be in a "Silent Hill" scenario - where you are the innocent person, trying to escape from the "nasty" people. Something that aligns quite well with the common perception of "what is good", and what most people try to be like.

But once you force people into the opposite role - and setup game rules such that the player thinks like the murderer... I dunno, but I think it really can mess you up. Maybe its harmless fun - and maybe its not. It also does depend on how immersive it is. Manhunt2 (Wii) was an obvious example - and I really did think that it took things too far. God know what would happen if you combined that with PS3/360 realistic level graphics - in an American Psycho scenario... and setup rules that you got more points for really gruesome/creative kills.

Think of it this way - even if someone was doing these things to an inanimate object (a dummy, a tree, or something else) - it would be really disturbing - and someone watching the person hacking away would be freaked out (and possibly call the cops?). So is it ok to be doing these things in your own home, in a really visually realistic environment? Is it just fun, or is it simulated murder?

(I'm definitely no expert in this, and have only dabbled in psych subjects in the past)

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Note that my rant only really applies to horrific "Manhunt" type scenarios. I think sex will eventually become popular in games, as will other non-violent (non-illegal?) adult themes.

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For those that say that Manhunt type violence is ok... is there ANY limit for you?

 - Paedophila in games?

 - Gruesome hurting of minors/children/babies?

 - Murder of pets (popping eyes out with fingers?)

 - intricate torture scenes, or "Sims" type prisoner scenes? (starvation, cruelty, etc..)

Can you come up with a scenario you would NOT allow? 

Its worth noting that all (I think Bonni & Clyde included?) received 'R' ratings here in Austalia.

A special cut-version of NBK was once shown on TV - heavily cut, and at a very late timeslot. Clockwork Orange I don't think ever has or will make free to air TV.

Clockwork Orange became famous (here anyway) because it was banned instantly at release, and remained banned for about 20 years. 

In one of our states (Queensland) Hellraiser (1?) was banned at release, and is never allowed to be stocked by any video store.

Due to development cost, and the relative small number (of big games anyway) games tend to be much more international releases - rather than small local ones. So the global market is usually taken into account.

What I was talking about was something that shams just posted about ... In my opinion the content of violence and graphic imagery is far less important than the context that it is delivered in.

If you take a 13 year old and have them work in a trauma center where they end up seeing horrible images of people losing limbs, being horribly burnt, and having pussy-rashes (and other assorted disgusting things) there is probably far less psychological harm being done than if you take a 25 year old and have them play a game with N64 level graphics where they torture puppies for points.

I'm not saying that violent games should be banned but I do think it is important to acknowlege that their may be harm caused and try to encourage developers not to push the boundries for the sake of pushing the boundries.

And yet, the kid behind the VT shootings had no video games in his room (even though everyone wants to blaim it on video games) and the pictures he sent to the news station were poses directly from the movie Oldboy. It's a double standard. Video games are hardly going to be the one thing that turns a pshyotic person to violence. They don't need much incentive.

Sex is even handled tougher in the USA. While films like "Der letzte Tango in Paris", "Basic Instinct", "Crash" or "Eyes Wide Shut" contains very explicitly nude scenes, games with even only hints would get a "M-Rating" which limits the distribution. Factor 5 originally build in a easter egg in Lair. The Cheat "Hot Coffee", in reference to the scandal around GTA:SA, was playing a short movie of a coffee machine. That had to be removed from the game, because it was undercutting the authority of the ESRB"

The Hot Coffee thing is really lame of the ESRB, but otherwise this argument falls flat since I'm sure all the films he metnioned have R ratings.

As for Hostel II vs. Manhunt 2...I don't think it's that easy to compare them. For starters, one could argue that the film ratings board didn't do its job and Hostel II should be rated worse than R. Should the ESRB really bow to whatever the MPAA decides is appropriate?

Not to mention other arguments people have made here that acting out murders is different from watching them.

And last but not least, many of these films have been censored too. Saw III was rated worse than R seven times before it was censored enough for the MPAA to finally give it an R rating.