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Discussion: Terrorism, Israel, Hamas, etc

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Comrade Tovya said:
vlad321 said:
Comrade Tovya said:
Slimebeast said:
vlad321

FYI The West Bank is occupied by Israel for the exact those reasons - security for it's citizens.

Gaza was a test ground. Ariel Sharon thought it was good to give the Palestinians a chance to show they can be peaceful. But you know what, they failed. And the opposition party in Israel, with leader Benyamin Netanyahu, is about to win the election that is in a couple of weeks - and Netanyahu has always been against Israel leaving Gaza.

 

You are right that Gaza was supposed to be a testing ground (that obviously proved to be a failed strategy) but Bibi Netanyahu was against leaving Gaza only in the beginning. Bibi changed his mind later and agreed to do it (he actually voted "yes" on the withdrawl measure presented to the cabinet). Bibi isn't a saint in this thing.

But your first comment does bring up a valid point.

Why is it that everyone keeps telling the Jews to take the step towards peace, and when they do (and the Arabs attack anyway) that the Jews always get blamed? I mean seriously, when does the world finally take a step back and say, "wow, the Jews keep giving, and the Arabs keep the same 'drive the Jews into the sea' mantra up anyway?"

It seems to me, that any logical human being would understand that for peace amongst any two parties to exist, both parties have to give a little here and there to gain each other's trust. The Jews backed out of Gaza, but still keeping a close eye on it just to play it safe, and Hamas went on a rocket barrage in thanks for their sacrifice. When do the world finally say, enough is enough? Palestinians, either agree that the Jews have a right to exist, or just forget getting your own country. It's actually a pretty simple bit of logic.

 

And you are forgetting that there will ALWAYS be people that want more and never be satisfied and resort to violence. You putting that small minority and labeling it as all Arabs just goes to show me how well propaganda can affect people.

 

Okay, I'll play the devil's advocate just for you.... let's go through the checklist:

Palestinian Authority> Still doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist

Hamas> Still doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist

Syria> Still doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist

Jordan> Their king supports Israel behind the scenes (but nearly ALL of their citizens still do not recognize Israel's right to exist... and outwardly their king has to be critical of Israel to prevent his overthrow)

Iraq> Still doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist

Saudi Arabia> Still doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist

Yemen> Still doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist

Would you like me to keep this up, or do we understand each other now? The Arab world still wants to "Jews driven into the sea". Nothing changes... they hate the Jews as much as they did in 1948. The only difference is that they are not naive enough anymore to think they can just walk up and beat the Israelis in war...

The arab assault now is called the "Palestinian cause". Don't make me bust out 500 quotes from the Arab leaders talking about how much they hate the Palestinians too... because you could fill a book with what they say. The Arabs have never given two-craps about the Palestinian isssue... they simply follow the doctrine of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Let the Jews and Palestinians kill each other, and you take out two birds with one stone.

That's not propaganda... that's what they say with their own mouths. So please, don't ever assault my intelligence to think that I simply read the news to get the truth. I actually have ears to hear, and I listen to what the enemy says from their own mouth. I don't have to rely on Western "propaganda" because the Arabs have always been all-to-happy to wear their true feelings on their sleeves. They all are happy to announce that they hate the Jews, and they want them ALL out of the middle east... so please, do tell me how this is propaganda lies?

 

 

More and more countries are obviously starting to recognize Israel as time goes on and on, here's an image of the relations of countries with respect to Israel in late 06 :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/c/c0/20080619115529%21Israel_relations.png

 

Now here's the same map 2 years later:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/Israel_relations.png

 

Red states means that they don't recognize Israel.



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vlad321,

The West didn't "put the Jews in Palestine". U know very well about the annual Jewish world congress, Herzl and that jewish immigration to The Holy Land started already late in the 19th century.

It was Jews who wanted to move into Palestine. The Brits even restricted jewish immigration for a long period in the 20's and 30's to try to settle down angry Arab nationalists.

And during Nazi Germany and just after it had fallen there was a huge amount of Jews who fled to Palestine, for obvious reasons.

The West didn't ask for this problem, the Brits didn't ask for this problem and even Germany didn't really cause it, they just escalated it (active Zionism had been a reality for more than three decades already before Hitler).

The West just tried to seek a reasonable solution. Yeah, you can oppose the split of Palestine into two nations, but in that period of time many other nations and regions were divided in Europe and millions and millions of people had to move (in Germany, Poland, Yugoslavia, Greece, Finland and so on). But you never hear those countries whine about it.




vlad321 said:
Comrade Tovya said:

 

Okay, I'll play the devil's advocate just for you.... let's go through the checklist:

Palestinian Authority> Still doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist

Hamas> Still doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist

Syria> Still doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist

Jordan> Their king supports Israel behind the scenes (but nearly ALL of their citizens still do not recognize Israel's right to exist... and outwardly their king has to be critical of Israel to prevent his overthrow)

Iraq> Still doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist

Saudi Arabia> Still doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist

Yemen> Still doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist

Would you like me to keep this up, or do we understand each other now? The Arab world still wants to "Jews driven into the sea". Nothing changes... they hate the Jews as much as they did in 1948. The only difference is that they are not naive enough anymore to think they can just walk up and beat the Israelis in war...

The arab assault now is called the "Palestinian cause". Don't make me bust out 500 quotes from the Arab leaders talking about how much they hate the Palestinians too... because you could fill a book with what they say. The Arabs have never given two-craps about the Palestinian isssue... they simply follow the doctrine of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Let the Jews and Palestinians kill each other, and you take out two birds with one stone.

That's not propaganda... that's what they say with their own mouths. So please, don't ever assault my intelligence to think that I simply read the news to get the truth. I actually have ears to hear, and I listen to what the enemy says from their own mouth. I don't have to rely on Western "propaganda" because the Arabs have always been all-to-happy to wear their true feelings on their sleeves. They all are happy to announce that they hate the Jews, and they want them ALL out of the middle east... so please, do tell me how this is propaganda lies?

 

 

More and more countries are obviously starting to recognize Israel as time goes on and on, here's an image of the relations of countries with respect to Israel in late 06 :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/c/c0/20080619115529%21Israel_relations.png

 

Now here's the same map 2 years later:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/Israel_relations.png

 

Red states means that they don't recognize Israel.

 

Right, like I said, Jordan's "official" position is "relations" with Israel.  But the people of Jordan still hate Israel to their core... and as we all know, the monarchy of Jordan is always barely holding on to their power, year-after-year.  Palestinians still make up the majority of the population. 

I put very little faith in simply the leadership of a country "accepting" one's existence.  Because we all learned the lesson from Iran.  The Shah of Iran was VERY pro-Israel... and made not secret of it.  The people overthrew him, and literally, overnight, Iran became an ardent enemy of Israel.

The people is where is the power is.  When you show me an Arab country where the people largely accept a Jewish nation, then I'll have hope.  But right now, virtually 95% of all Arabs spit of the existence of a Jewish nation in the middle of Pan-Arabia.  But the Arab nations are all still printing anti-Semitic "beak-nosed Jews" cartoons that depict Israel the way that the Nazis did... I put no faith in such a people.  Once they change their hearts, then I'll believe in peace.  Otherwise, I promise you that wars will continue in the middle east.



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Slimebeast said:
vlad321,

The West didn't "put the Jews in Palestine". U know very well about the annual Jewish world congress, Herzl and that jewish immigration to The Holy Land started already late in the 19th century.

It was Jews who wanted to move into Palestine. The Brits even restricted jewish immigration for a long period in the 20's and 30's to try to settle down angry Arab nationalists.

And during Nazi Germany and just after it had fallen there was a huge amount of Jews who fled to Palestine, for obvious reasons.

The West didn't ask for this problem, the Brits didn't ask for this problem and even Germany didn't really cause it, they just escalated it (active Zionism had been a reality for more than three decades already before Hitler).

The West just tried to seek a reasonable solution. Yeah, you can oppose the split of Palestine into two nations, but in that period of time many other nations and regions were divided in Europe and millions and millions of people had to move (in Germany, Poland, Yugoslavia, Greece, Finland and so on). But you never hear those countries whine about it.


 

Yes, Mikhev Israel was formed in 1860 or 1870. However the Palestinians didn't have problems with them as much. However it was AFTER WWI when the west got involved. Mainly the League of Nations agreed upon the Palestinian Mandate, which was in line with the Balfour Declaration, not only that but it REQUIRED that an independent Jewish Agency be created. The US was not part of the League of Nations at the time, however it also signed a treaty which basically agreed completely and supported the Mandate.

After seeing all that literally forced upon your nation, without you having any say in it, anyone would resort to violence. The US required far less before it started bitching and shooting at Britain back in the day.

Also those migrations you talked about, those people had the same religion, and more importantly, the same culture in between them. Thew Jewish and Muslim cultures differ greatly.



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vlad321 said:
Slimebeast said:
vlad321,

The West didn't "put the Jews in Palestine". U know very well about the annual Jewish world congress, Herzl and that jewish immigration to The Holy Land started already late in the 19th century.

It was Jews who wanted to move into Palestine. The Brits even restricted jewish immigration for a long period in the 20's and 30's to try to settle down angry Arab nationalists.

And during Nazi Germany and just after it had fallen there was a huge amount of Jews who fled to Palestine, for obvious reasons.

The West didn't ask for this problem, the Brits didn't ask for this problem and even Germany didn't really cause it, they just escalated it (active Zionism had been a reality for more than three decades already before Hitler).

The West just tried to seek a reasonable solution. Yeah, you can oppose the split of Palestine into two nations, but in that period of time many other nations and regions were divided in Europe and millions and millions of people had to move (in Germany, Poland, Yugoslavia, Greece, Finland and so on). But you never hear those countries whine about it.


 

Yes, Mikhev Israel was formed in 1860 or 1870. However the Palestinians didn't have problems with them as much. However it was AFTER WWI when the west got involved. Mainly the League of Nations agreed upon the Palestinian Mandate, which was in line with the Balfour Declaration, not only that but it REQUIRED that an independent Jewish Agency be created. The US was not part of the League of Nations at the time, however it also signed a treaty which basically agreed completely and supported the Mandate.

After seeing all that literally forced upon your nation, without you having any say in it, anyone would resort to violence. The US required far less before it started bitching and shooting at Britain back in the day.

Also those migrations you talked about, those people had the same religion, and more importantly, the same culture in between them. Thew Jewish and Muslim cultures differ greatly.

 

Actually, if we want to talk historical here, there was no such thing as a "Palestinian" in 1870, so it's no wonder they didn't have a problem with the Jews.

It's actually historically (and actually, recently admitted to by the Arabs) that the whole concept of a "Palestinian" is actually just something that was made up out of thin air.  And like I sad, don't get mad at me, it's the Palestinians who say this.

But on to your point...

Actually, the Orthodox Jewish and Muslim culture really isn't that different, so you are wrong on that.  But yes, the secular Western Jewish culture is significantly different.

Most important though, this whole assertion that the Arabs were somehow cultivating "Palestine" is just historically proven to be false.  Palestine was a land of bedouins and nomads, and virtually no structure existed prior to the Jews returning to their historical homeland.  There was no political structure, industrial structure, or anything.  It was a barren wasteland of nothingness.  One of these days I'll get a new scanner, and scan in some photos my grandfather passed on to me of Palestine prior to the mandate. 

Honestly, it was like looking at a wasteland... there was nothing there, which is why no one gave two-craps about it.

But as soon as the Jews wanted it, low and behold, suddenly the nomads wanted a permanent presence built.

Seriously though, I don't care if Muslims want to live in Israel.  Whether it be for secular reasoning, or Torah reasoning, they absolutely have the right to live in Israel.  Even if you are religious, it's acceptable.  The one acception to that rule being is if the Muslims that live amongst you want to destroy you... and in such a scenario (as exists) no religious or secular nation would accept such a concept. 

If the Arabs want to live in peace, I promise you, the majority of Jews are willing to give them it... but if they can't get off of the war horse long enough to fathom the concept, then I honestly don't care what happens to them.

Israel continues to make concessions, and the Arabs continue to kill Jews after they do so.  I have no compassion for a people who hates their enemy more than they love themselves.  That's just stupidity in the worst way.

And seriously, if I were a Muslim, I'd at least PRETEND to love Israel.  I'd do it just long enough to get Gaza and all of the "West Bank" back, and then after I was firmly "peacefully" planted there, I'd move on and attack again and demand more... and once I got it, I'd wave the peace flag and scream "I love Jews"... and then I'd just keep doing that over and over.

Luckily the Arabs are not bright enough to pull off such a maneuver, and instead, they start firing rockets and performing terrorist acts the day after an Israeli pullout. 

You can blast the Israelis all you like, but my God, seriously, the Arabs have to be smarter than this, right?  Well, 60 years later, and the answer is, "No".  They aren't smarter than this, because they just keep firing rockets and blowing up busloads of school children.  So, if you ask me, the Arabs not only have to be the worst military strategists of all time, they also deserve everything that gets thrown at them.

I swear to you, Saladin would turn in his grave if he knew he left his brilliant military legacy to these people.

 

 



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vlad321 said:

 

Also those migrations you talked about, those people had the same religion, and more importantly, the same culture in between them. Thew Jewish and Muslim cultures differ greatly.


I think you misunderstood somehow. It had nothing to do with similar cultures. I'm talking about forced migration of people due to many nations being devided after WWII.

Germany lost 1/3 of it's territory, which was taken by Poland, who in turn lost almost all of it's eastern half, which became part of Belarus. Tens of millions of Germans had to leave their land and move into the 2/3 of Germany that remained. Millions of Polish had to migrate because the whole land was relocated 250 miles to the west. 500,000 Finns had to leave their homes in Karelia which was stolen by the Soviet Union. And so on.

The Palestinian Arab situation was no different - half of the Palestinian mandate was to become Israel, so the Arabs there had to move to the other half that was meant to become the new Arab nation of Palestine.

So you see, the Palestinian Arabs are not unique in any way. The only difference is that after 60 years they got a whole world (people like you) using this old argument about their land being stolen, while all these other nations and people have accepted that they lost part of their territories and there is nothing to do about it.

 

 



I'm surprised you all are still discussing this. I gave up.

No matter how much logic you bring to the table it always boils down to me, me, ME and F them!

In the meantime hundreds of innocent people still die and the injustice goes on.

I'm not touching this topic again until Obama gets in the white house and hopefully does as he said and really puts US support on a much more level playing field.

If not, well then this conflict will continue for at least 8 more years, or until the first and subsequent nukes go off.



^Actually the Arabs that were living inside the borders of the new nation of Israel didn't even have to leave (and many of them didn't) but they were tricked by other Arabs to leave, as Comrade explained above.

The point is that after so much time has passed, all other nations over the world have accepted territory relocations like this in the past - except for Palestininan Arabs and all the rabid left-wingers over the world that are fighting for their cause.



superchunk said:
I'm surprised you all are still discussing this. I gave up.

No matter how much logic you bring to the table it always boils down to me, me, ME and F them!

In the meantime hundreds of innocent people still die and the injustice goes on.

I'm not touching this topic again until Obama gets in the white house and hopefully does as he said and really puts US support on a much more level playing field.

If not, well then this conflict will continue for at least 8 more years, or until the first and subsequent nukes go off.

 

God bless you, seriously, but Obama can't fix a single problem in the middle east.  Even Clinton failed (and he was just about as likable as a president as we've ever had).  There is only one solution to the problem in a secular way... that is the Arabs accepting a Jewish nation in the middle east, and their people being re-educated to believe that a Jew isn't a "son of pigs and monkeys".

When your entire population believes that Jews are blood-sucking animals (actually, lower than animals) there will never be peace.  Obama might be a good president, who knows?  But there is no man on Earth who has the power to change the way people see other people.  That's something that relies on the individual.

Perfect real-world example:

My neighbor is literally a psychopathic moron.  He has fits of rage all the time (he's got turrets syndrome or something).  He breaks out his windows, and literally kicks down his doors, and screams and breaks things from sun up to sun down.  He's a mental case.

It doesn't matter how many times the police come to my house, and tell me that I'm just going to have to learn to deal with his racket, 24/7, I will never change my mind about the guy until he gets help.  I can't fix the psycho problems in his head, and neither can the police.  Only he can.  If President Obama showed up in his presidential chopper, landed on his front lawn, and demanded that I like him, and that he stops acting stupid, it wouldn't do a bit of good. 

My neighbor has to decide for himself that he needs to be a good neighbor.. no one can change the way his brain works.

(well, luckily for me, the psycho had his house repossessed by the bank, so he's being forced to move out here in a few days... well, that works too I suppose).



MarioKart:

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Slimebeast said:
^Actually the Arabs that were living inside the borders of the new nation of Israel didn't even have to leave (and many of them didn't) but they were tricked by other Arabs to leave, as Comrade explained above.

The point is that after so much time has passed, all other nations over the world have accepted territory relocations like this in the past - except for Palestininan Arabs and all the rabid left-wingers over the world that are fighting for their cause.

 

That's actually a very intelligent answer!  I like it!

Afterall, around the same time period, the Germans lost a LOT of territory.

They fought for expansion in the Great War, and then later in WW2, and lo and behold, they woke up and realized that their borders weren't expanding after each war... they were shrinking.  So amazingly, the Germans decided that twice was enough, and they decided just to accept defeat.. they were happy that they still have a country of their own.

So maybe the Arabs should learn a lesson from this.  One day soon, the Jews may very well get tired of giving and giving, and getting nothing but terror in return and decide to stamp out the Palestinians for good.  They would be wise to accept what they've been given, and maybe later get a little more with good behavior.  Or, continue down the path of ignorance they are on now, and one night they may go to sleep with the Gaza and a majority of the West Bank... and wake up as permanent refugees in the Sinai, Jordan, and Lebanon with no country at all.



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