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Discussion: Terrorism, Israel, Hamas, etc

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Slimebeast said:
vlad321

FYI The West Bank is occupied by Israel for the exact those reasons - security for it's citizens.

Gaza was a test ground. Ariel Sharon thought it was good to give the Palestinians a chance to show they can be peaceful. But you know what, they failed. And the opposition party in Israel, with leader Benyamin Netanyahu, is about to win the election that is in a couple of weeks - and Netanyahu has always been against Israel leaving Gaza.

 

You are right that Gaza was supposed to be a testing ground (that obviously proved to be a failed strategy) but Bibi Netanyahu was against leaving Gaza only in the beginning.  Bibi changed his mind later and agreed to do it (he actually voted "yes" on the withdrawl measure presented to the cabinet).  Bibi isn't a saint in this thing.

But your first comment does bring up a valid point.

Why is it that everyone keeps telling the Jews to take the step towards peace, and when they do (and the Arabs attack anyway) that the Jews always get blamed?  I mean seriously, when does the world finally take a step back and say, "wow, the Jews keep giving, and the Arabs keep the same 'drive the Jews into the sea' mantra up anyway?"

It seems to me, that any logical human being would understand that for peace amongst any two parties to exist, both parties have to give a little here and there to gain each other's trust.  The Jews backed out of Gaza, but still keeping a close eye on it just to play it safe, and Hamas went on a rocket barrage in thanks for their sacrifice.  When do the world finally say, enough is enough?  Palestinians, either agree that the Jews have a right to exist, or just forget getting your own country.  It's actually a pretty simple bit of logic.



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Comrade Tovya said:
Slimebeast said:
vlad321

FYI The West Bank is occupied by Israel for the exact those reasons - security for it's citizens.

Gaza was a test ground. Ariel Sharon thought it was good to give the Palestinians a chance to show they can be peaceful. But you know what, they failed. And the opposition party in Israel, with leader Benyamin Netanyahu, is about to win the election that is in a couple of weeks - and Netanyahu has always been against Israel leaving Gaza.

 

You are right that Gaza was supposed to be a testing ground (that obviously proved to be a failed strategy) but Bibi Netanyahu was against leaving Gaza only in the beginning. Bibi changed his mind later and agreed to do it (he actually voted "yes" on the withdrawl measure presented to the cabinet). Bibi isn't a saint in this thing.

But your first comment does bring up a valid point.

Why is it that everyone keeps telling the Jews to take the step towards peace, and when they do (and the Arabs attack anyway) that the Jews always get blamed? I mean seriously, when does the world finally take a step back and say, "wow, the Jews keep giving, and the Arabs keep the same 'drive the Jews into the sea' mantra up anyway?"

It seems to me, that any logical human being would understand that for peace amongst any two parties to exist, both parties have to give a little here and there to gain each other's trust. The Jews backed out of Gaza, but still keeping a close eye on it just to play it safe, and Hamas went on a rocket barrage in thanks for their sacrifice. When do the world finally say, enough is enough? Palestinians, either agree that the Jews have a right to exist, or just forget getting your own country. It's actually a pretty simple bit of logic.

 

And you are forgetting that there will ALWAYS be people that want more and never be satisfied and resort to violence. You putting that small minority and labeling it as all Arabs just goes to show me how well propaganda can affect people.



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vlad321 said:
Slimebeast said:

vlad321

FYI The West Bank is still occupied by Israel for the exact those reasons - security for it's citizens.

Gaza was a test ground. Ariel Sharon thought it was good to give the Palestinians a chance to show they can be peaceful. But you know what, they failed. And the opposition party in Israel, with leader Benyamin Netanyahu, is about to win the election that is in a couple of weeks - and Netanyahu has always been against Israel leaving Gaza.

 

Oh well hell, if we're going down that path, why the fuck was Israel even created. When it comes down to it, Western Powers kicked out the Palestinians and put Israel there. Yes, there are a few more nuances but that's what it comes down to in the end.

 

Actually Vlad, you seem to have a written your own version of the history books.

The Western powers didn't "kick out" the Palestinians.  ORIGINALLY, both Trans-Jordan and Israel were part of the Palestine Mandate, and was supposed to be split between the Jews and Arabs equally.  As we both know, that didn't happen.  The Arabs (Palestinians) got ALL of Jordan, and then another half section of Israel.

Secondly, the Jews didn't force the Arabs out.  Actually, a lot of them stuck around and became Israeli citizens... and today enjoy the greatest amount of freedoms than any other country in the middle east.  So they made a good choice.  They have equal voting rights, and can actually hold political office as well. 

And what happened to the rest of the Arabs who lived there?  The rampaging Arab armies told them to flee, and that after they killed the Jews, they could come back.  So that's what they did.   And guess what Vlad?  The Jews actually beat the tar out of the Arabs.... so why should I feel bad for them?  They should have stuck around like their Arab-Israeli citizens breathren did. 

So, let's not talk about revisionist history if we can help outselves.  The Arabs left because their brothers told them to... the one's who gave their brothers the bird and stuck around got a real good deal from the Jews.

Now the Jews that lived in Arab countries?  They were ALL expelled.  Not some of them, ALL of them.  All of their properties were confiscated, and the assets seized.  So if we want to get into a discussion of fairness, let's talk about the billions of dollars in value the Jews lost when their assets were stolen.  I don't hear you crying for them?  Of course not, anti-Zionism is just a politically correct way to be an anti-semite in todays day in age.



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Comrade Tovya said:
Slimebeast said:
vlad321

FYI The West Bank is occupied by Israel for the exact those reasons - security for it's citizens.

Gaza was a test ground. Ariel Sharon thought it was good to give the Palestinians a chance to show they can be peaceful. But you know what, they failed. And the opposition party in Israel, with leader Benyamin Netanyahu, is about to win the election that is in a couple of weeks - and Netanyahu has always been against Israel leaving Gaza.

 

You are right that Gaza was supposed to be a testing ground (that obviously proved to be a failed strategy) but Bibi Netanyahu was against leaving Gaza only in the beginning.  Bibi changed his mind later and agreed to do it (he actually voted "yes" on the withdrawl measure presented to the cabinet).  Bibi isn't a saint in this thing.

But your first comment does bring up a valid point.

Why is it that everyone keeps telling the Jews to take the step towards peace, and when they do (and the Arabs attack anyway) that the Jews always get blamed?  I mean seriously, when does the world finally take a step back and say, "wow, the Jews keep giving, and the Arabs keep the same 'drive the Jews into the sea' mantra up anyway?"

 


Yeah, I'm amazed too that no one is giving credit to Israel for that. It's so unnfair. No wonder that many Israelis feel discouraged and eventually are thinking "fuck it, no one is thanking us for being nice".

About Netanyahu, I'm sure he is still against Israel leaving Gaza, in his heart. But there are tactical reasons to vote yes. Political and other reasons.

 

 

 



Slimebeast said:
Comrade Tovya said:
Slimebeast said:
vlad321

FYI The West Bank is occupied by Israel for the exact those reasons - security for it's citizens.

Gaza was a test ground. Ariel Sharon thought it was good to give the Palestinians a chance to show they can be peaceful. But you know what, they failed. And the opposition party in Israel, with leader Benyamin Netanyahu, is about to win the election that is in a couple of weeks - and Netanyahu has always been against Israel leaving Gaza.

 

You are right that Gaza was supposed to be a testing ground (that obviously proved to be a failed strategy) but Bibi Netanyahu was against leaving Gaza only in the beginning.  Bibi changed his mind later and agreed to do it (he actually voted "yes" on the withdrawl measure presented to the cabinet).  Bibi isn't a saint in this thing.

But your first comment does bring up a valid point.

Why is it that everyone keeps telling the Jews to take the step towards peace, and when they do (and the Arabs attack anyway) that the Jews always get blamed?  I mean seriously, when does the world finally take a step back and say, "wow, the Jews keep giving, and the Arabs keep the same 'drive the Jews into the sea' mantra up anyway?"

 


Yeah, I'm amazed too that no one is giving credit to Israel for that. It's so unnfair. No wonder that many Israelis feel discouraged and eventually are thinking "fuck it, no one is thanking us for being nice".

About Netanyahu, I'm sure he is still against Israel leaving Gaza, in his heart. But there are tactical reasons to vote yes. Political and other reasons.

 

Yeah, Bibi ain't all bad... I've always had a softspot for the guy.  I just wish he'd stop being a politician, and be a leader.  He had the helm back in '96, and he had his big "Three NOs" and he didn't stick to his guns, and he gave up Chevron (Hebron) to the Arabs and didn't get a thing or guarantee in return.  So, I honestly don't put too much faith in the guy... Don't get me wrong, I like him better than Olmert or Barak, but he's not that much different than him.  I hope Likud wins like it's supposed to and he proves me wrong.  I'd love to see him be more like his brother, and be a hero.



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Comrade Tovya said:
vlad321 said:
Slimebeast said:

vlad321

FYI The West Bank is still occupied by Israel for the exact those reasons - security for it's citizens.

Gaza was a test ground. Ariel Sharon thought it was good to give the Palestinians a chance to show they can be peaceful. But you know what, they failed. And the opposition party in Israel, with leader Benyamin Netanyahu, is about to win the election that is in a couple of weeks - and Netanyahu has always been against Israel leaving Gaza.

 

Oh well hell, if we're going down that path, why the fuck was Israel even created. When it comes down to it, Western Powers kicked out the Palestinians and put Israel there. Yes, there are a few more nuances but that's what it comes down to in the end.

 

Actually Vlad, you seem to have a written your own version of the history books.

The Western powers didn't "kick out" the Palestinians. ORIGINALLY, both Trans-Jordan and Israel were part of the Palestine Mandate, and was supposed to be split between the Jews and Arabs equally. As we both know, that didn't happen. The Arabs (Palestinians) got ALL of Jordan, and then another half section of Israel.

Secondly, the Jews didn't force the Arabs out. Actually, a lot of them stuck around and became Israeli citizens... and today enjoy the greatest amount of freedoms than any other country in the middle east. So they made a good choice. They have equal voting rights, and can actually hold political office as well.

And what happened to the rest of the Arabs who lived there? The rampaging Arab armies told them to flee, and that after they killed the Jews, they could come back. So that's what they did. And guess what Vlad? The Jews actually beat the tar out of the Arabs.... so why should I feel bad for them? They should have stuck around like their Arab-Israeli citizens breathren did.

So, let's not talk about revisionist history if we can help outselves. The Arabs left because their brothers told them to... the one's who gave their brothers the bird and stuck around got a real good deal from the Jews.

Now the Jews that lived in Arab countries? They were ALL expelled. Not some of them, ALL of them. All of their properties were confiscated, and the assets seized. So if we want to get into a discussion of fairness, let's talk about the billions of dollars in value the Jews lost when their assets were stolen. I don't hear you crying for them? Of course not, anti-Zionism is just a politically correct way to be an anti-semite in todays day in age.

 

You are completely focusing on the wrong time period, as most people do. Yes, given that, the Jews did fight and win Israel by themselves. It's the time period BEFORE all that that shows that it was the West who came in and forced the Jews upon the lands of the Palestinians. Heard of the Balfour Declaration before? Or the fact that the British Mandate of Palestine that you seem to talk so much of was approved only by the League of Nations, which, lo and behold, is a congregation solely of the Western Powers. Or the Jewish Legion? So basically what happened was that the Palestinians were forced to take in the Jews. They never had a say in it or anything. On another note, yes the Jews did defeat the arabic onslaugh in the 7 day's war, however they did it with the help with some serious military tech help from western countries. Next time when you are using history, please go all the way, half-assing it only lowers your writing to the same level as blatant propaganda.

Also please stop with the whole anti-semitism. Do you know that Arabs are Semites as well? You are just as anti-semetic as those Arabs you deplore so much.



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God told the Israelis to treat the Palestinians like crap way back in the Old Testament days. It is in Judges.



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vlad321 said:
Comrade Tovya said:
Slimebeast said:
vlad321

FYI The West Bank is occupied by Israel for the exact those reasons - security for it's citizens.

Gaza was a test ground. Ariel Sharon thought it was good to give the Palestinians a chance to show they can be peaceful. But you know what, they failed. And the opposition party in Israel, with leader Benyamin Netanyahu, is about to win the election that is in a couple of weeks - and Netanyahu has always been against Israel leaving Gaza.

 

You are right that Gaza was supposed to be a testing ground (that obviously proved to be a failed strategy) but Bibi Netanyahu was against leaving Gaza only in the beginning. Bibi changed his mind later and agreed to do it (he actually voted "yes" on the withdrawl measure presented to the cabinet). Bibi isn't a saint in this thing.

But your first comment does bring up a valid point.

Why is it that everyone keeps telling the Jews to take the step towards peace, and when they do (and the Arabs attack anyway) that the Jews always get blamed? I mean seriously, when does the world finally take a step back and say, "wow, the Jews keep giving, and the Arabs keep the same 'drive the Jews into the sea' mantra up anyway?"

It seems to me, that any logical human being would understand that for peace amongst any two parties to exist, both parties have to give a little here and there to gain each other's trust. The Jews backed out of Gaza, but still keeping a close eye on it just to play it safe, and Hamas went on a rocket barrage in thanks for their sacrifice. When do the world finally say, enough is enough? Palestinians, either agree that the Jews have a right to exist, or just forget getting your own country. It's actually a pretty simple bit of logic.

 

And you are forgetting that there will ALWAYS be people that want more and never be satisfied and resort to violence. You putting that small minority and labeling it as all Arabs just goes to show me how well propaganda can affect people.

 

Okay, I'll play the devil's advocate just for you.... let's go through the checklist:

Palestinian Authority> Still doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist

Hamas> Still doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist

Syria> Still doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist

Jordan> Their king supports Israel behind the scenes (but nearly ALL of their citizens still do not recognize Israel's right to exist... and outwardly their king has to be critical of Israel to prevent his overthrow)

Iraq> Still doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist

Saudi Arabia> Still doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist

Yemen> Still doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist

Would you like me to keep this up, or do we understand each other now?  The Arab world still wants to "Jews driven into the sea".  Nothing changes... they hate the Jews as much as they did in 1948.  The only difference is that they are not naive enough anymore to think they can just walk up and beat the Israelis in war...

The arab assault now is called the "Palestinian cause".  Don't make me bust out 500 quotes from the Arab leaders talking about how much they hate the Palestinians too... because you could fill a book with what they say.  The Arabs have never given two-craps about the Palestinian isssue... they simply follow the doctrine of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".  Let the Jews and Palestinians kill each other, and you take out two birds with one stone.

That's not propaganda... that's what they say with their own mouths.  So please, don't ever assault my intelligence to think that I simply read the news to get the truth.  I actually have ears to hear, and I listen to what the enemy says from their own mouth.  I don't have to rely on Western "propaganda" because the Arabs have always been all-to-happy to wear their true feelings on their sleeves.  They all are happy to announce that they hate the Jews, and they want them ALL out of the middle east... so please, do tell me how this is propaganda lies?

 



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vlad321 said:
Comrade Tovya said:
vlad321 said:
Slimebeast said:

vlad321

FYI The West Bank is still occupied by Israel for the exact those reasons - security for it's citizens.

Gaza was a test ground. Ariel Sharon thought it was good to give the Palestinians a chance to show they can be peaceful. But you know what, they failed. And the opposition party in Israel, with leader Benyamin Netanyahu, is about to win the election that is in a couple of weeks - and Netanyahu has always been against Israel leaving Gaza.

 

Oh well hell, if we're going down that path, why the fuck was Israel even created. When it comes down to it, Western Powers kicked out the Palestinians and put Israel there. Yes, there are a few more nuances but that's what it comes down to in the end.

 

Actually Vlad, you seem to have a written your own version of the history books.

The Western powers didn't "kick out" the Palestinians. ORIGINALLY, both Trans-Jordan and Israel were part of the Palestine Mandate, and was supposed to be split between the Jews and Arabs equally. As we both know, that didn't happen. The Arabs (Palestinians) got ALL of Jordan, and then another half section of Israel.

Secondly, the Jews didn't force the Arabs out. Actually, a lot of them stuck around and became Israeli citizens... and today enjoy the greatest amount of freedoms than any other country in the middle east. So they made a good choice. They have equal voting rights, and can actually hold political office as well.

And what happened to the rest of the Arabs who lived there? The rampaging Arab armies told them to flee, and that after they killed the Jews, they could come back. So that's what they did. And guess what Vlad? The Jews actually beat the tar out of the Arabs.... so why should I feel bad for them? They should have stuck around like their Arab-Israeli citizens breathren did.

So, let's not talk about revisionist history if we can help outselves. The Arabs left because their brothers told them to... the one's who gave their brothers the bird and stuck around got a real good deal from the Jews.

Now the Jews that lived in Arab countries? They were ALL expelled. Not some of them, ALL of them. All of their properties were confiscated, and the assets seized. So if we want to get into a discussion of fairness, let's talk about the billions of dollars in value the Jews lost when their assets were stolen. I don't hear you crying for them? Of course not, anti-Zionism is just a politically correct way to be an anti-semite in todays day in age.

 

You are completely focusing on the wrong time period, as most people do. Yes, given that, the Jews did fight and win Israel by themselves. It's the time period BEFORE all that that shows that it was the West who came in and forced the Jews upon the lands of the Palestinians. Heard of the Balfour Declaration before? Or the fact that the British Mandate of Palestine that you seem to talk so much of was approved only by the League of Nations, which, lo and behold, is a congregation solely of the Western Powers. Or the Jewish Legion? So basically what happened was that the Palestinians were forced to take in the Jews. They never had a say in it or anything. On another note, yes the Jews did defeat the arabic onslaugh in the 7 day's war, however they did it with the help with some serious military tech help from western countries. Next time when you are using history, please go all the way, half-assing it only lowers your writing to the same level as blatant propaganda.

Also please stop with the whole anti-semitism. Do you know that Arabs are Semites as well? You are just as anti-semetic as those Arabs you deplore so much.

 

You are missing the whole point.  Yes, I am a student of middle east politics and intrigue (I think the reasons for such are obvious)...

No resolution establishing any Jewish or Arab state in the middle east has ever been enforceable by the Europeans.  Do you know why?  Even UN resolution 181 was a NON-BINDING resolution.  The Arabs rejected it and attacked Israel.  They lost big time... so bad that they consider it one of the worst disasters in the history of the Arab nations.

Therefore, I find it quite amuzing that the anti-Zionist crowd just loves to scream at the Jews, "You better look at UN Resolution 181, you better do what it says".

Why?!  The Arabs rejected it... and it was only binding in the event both the Jews and Arabs agreed to it.  The Jews did, and the Arabs didn't.  They lost the war, and rejected the resolution, so now by International Law, UN 181 is now simply a piece of history, and has nothing to do with the current times at all.

Lastly, I don't "deplore" Arabs.  As I have stated 500-times in this forum, I have MANY very close Arab & Muslim friends.  I don't hold them accountable for the actions of the nations they emmigrated from.  The VAST majority of Muslims on the otherhand target Jews worldwide with assault and terrorism when most of them are not Israelis, and have NOTHING to do with the current conflict.

Muslim-Americans just love to whine about being oppressed by Americans after 9/11, and then they turn around and do the same thing to Jews who, like them, have nothing to do with terrorism or conflicts in the middle east.  That's why I don't shed tears for them... I don't respect people like that.



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Comrade Tovya said:
vlad321 said:
Comrade Tovya said:
vlad321 said:
Slimebeast said:

vlad321

FYI The West Bank is still occupied by Israel for the exact those reasons - security for it's citizens.

Gaza was a test ground. Ariel Sharon thought it was good to give the Palestinians a chance to show they can be peaceful. But you know what, they failed. And the opposition party in Israel, with leader Benyamin Netanyahu, is about to win the election that is in a couple of weeks - and Netanyahu has always been against Israel leaving Gaza.

 

Oh well hell, if we're going down that path, why the fuck was Israel even created. When it comes down to it, Western Powers kicked out the Palestinians and put Israel there. Yes, there are a few more nuances but that's what it comes down to in the end.

 

Actually Vlad, you seem to have a written your own version of the history books.

The Western powers didn't "kick out" the Palestinians. ORIGINALLY, both Trans-Jordan and Israel were part of the Palestine Mandate, and was supposed to be split between the Jews and Arabs equally. As we both know, that didn't happen. The Arabs (Palestinians) got ALL of Jordan, and then another half section of Israel.

Secondly, the Jews didn't force the Arabs out. Actually, a lot of them stuck around and became Israeli citizens... and today enjoy the greatest amount of freedoms than any other country in the middle east. So they made a good choice. They have equal voting rights, and can actually hold political office as well.

And what happened to the rest of the Arabs who lived there? The rampaging Arab armies told them to flee, and that after they killed the Jews, they could come back. So that's what they did. And guess what Vlad? The Jews actually beat the tar out of the Arabs.... so why should I feel bad for them? They should have stuck around like their Arab-Israeli citizens breathren did.

So, let's not talk about revisionist history if we can help outselves. The Arabs left because their brothers told them to... the one's who gave their brothers the bird and stuck around got a real good deal from the Jews.

Now the Jews that lived in Arab countries? They were ALL expelled. Not some of them, ALL of them. All of their properties were confiscated, and the assets seized. So if we want to get into a discussion of fairness, let's talk about the billions of dollars in value the Jews lost when their assets were stolen. I don't hear you crying for them? Of course not, anti-Zionism is just a politically correct way to be an anti-semite in todays day in age.

 

You are completely focusing on the wrong time period, as most people do. Yes, given that, the Jews did fight and win Israel by themselves. It's the time period BEFORE all that that shows that it was the West who came in and forced the Jews upon the lands of the Palestinians. Heard of the Balfour Declaration before? Or the fact that the British Mandate of Palestine that you seem to talk so much of was approved only by the League of Nations, which, lo and behold, is a congregation solely of the Western Powers. Or the Jewish Legion? So basically what happened was that the Palestinians were forced to take in the Jews. They never had a say in it or anything. On another note, yes the Jews did defeat the arabic onslaugh in the 7 day's war, however they did it with the help with some serious military tech help from western countries. Next time when you are using history, please go all the way, half-assing it only lowers your writing to the same level as blatant propaganda.

Also please stop with the whole anti-semitism. Do you know that Arabs are Semites as well? You are just as anti-semetic as those Arabs you deplore so much.

 

You are missing the whole point. Yes, I am a student of middle east politics and intrigue (I think the reasons for such are obvious)...

No resolution establishing any Jewish or Arab state in the middle east has ever been enforceable by the Europeans. Do you know why? Even UN resolution 181 was a NON-BINDING resolution. The Arabs rejected it and attacked Israel. They lost big time... so bad that they consider it one of the worst disasters in the history of the Arab nations.

Therefore, I find it quite amuzing that the anti-Zionist crowd just loves to scream at the Jews, "You better look at UN Resolution 181, you better do what it says".

Why?! The Arabs rejected it... and it was only binding in the event both the Jews and Arabs agreed to it. The Jews did, and the Arabs didn't. They lost the war, and rejected the resolution, so now by International Law, UN 181 is now simply a piece of history, and has nothing to do with the current times at all.

Lastly, I don't "deplore" Arabs. As I have stated 500-times in this forum, I have MANY very close Arab & Muslim friends. I don't hold them accountable for the actions of the nations they emmigrated from. The VAST majority of Muslims on the otherhand target Jews worldwide with assault and terrorism when most of them are not Israelis, and have NOTHING to do with the current conflict.

Muslim-Americans just love to whine about being oppressed by Americans after 9/11, and then they turn around and do the same thing to Jews who, like them, have nothing to do with terrorism or conflicts in the middle east. That's why I don't shed tears for them... I don't respect people like that.

 

And again you are looking in the wrong time frame. It's the Europeans + US who literally said " Jews will live here now." That's the whole Mandate of Palestine, and the Balfour Declaration of 1917 clearly shows Brtian's intention of doing exactly that. Well I'm sorry, but when you force an entire population on an already established nation, things don't really turn out all flowers and daisies. There wouldn't even have been a Resolution 181 because there wouldn't have been any conflict to resolve to begin with if the West didn't put the Jews in Palestine.



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gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835