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Forums - General Discussion - UN backs ceasefire call for Gaza

superchunk said:
Comrade Tovya said:

 

Uh, no.  If the IDF (actually, IAF) didn't care who they killed, they'd cluster bomb Gaza into the stone age.  Israel does take measures to try and prevent civilian casualties.  But if Hamas leaders are going to hide behind women and children, then you can't eliminate the possibility of such casualties.  Like I've show time and time again, Hamas leadership admits that they kid behind civilians for the purpose of those civilians dying. 

And as for the UN buildings, etc, Hamas was using those installations as bases of terror, and the UN didn nothing to prevent this (nor have they since 1967).  If the UN will not prevent terrorism from being commited in their vehicles and buildings, then they'll just have to accept that those things are in risk of destruction.  The UN is joke anyway, everyone knows that.  All talk, no action.

A) When Israel bombs/artilleries buildings where it is absolutely known a large number of civilians are hiding from the war, regardless if there are enemy combatants standing on top, you can only conclude that they don't care about civilian deaths. Its exactly the samething as Hamas shooting missiles into Israel. Both are inherently wrong and both shouldn't be allowed to happen.

Another point, about 6 days ago Israel bombed the ish out of an apartment bloc. UN and Red Cross, as usual, asked permission to access the area for the dead/injured. Israel refused for over 4 days. By the time they got in there more had died whom could probably have been helped and there were children, so starved of water/food that they couldn't even stand next to their dead mother's bodies. It isn't a mass region, Israel knew there were people there, civilians there needing help, yet they didn't allow them in. For what possibly purpose beyond letting them die/starve etc, would Israel not allow them in?

B) True there have been times Hamas has used these buildings/vehicles as transports. But, when UN specifically says this specific vehicle is delivering food DO NOT ATTACK I would think Israel could be nearly positive that one isn't a target. Yet they still shot and killed the driver and passenger and gravely wounded a 3rd person. Again, complete lack of care for civilian life.

Granted UN is a joke. But, that is partically caused by all security members taking advantage of their veto powers.

 

 

I think what I am saying is being lost... the Palestinians are not hiding from the bombs.  Israel actually drops leaflets and calls people on their cell phones to tell them to evacuate before the bombing... instead of hiding elsewhere, they all go into the building for the purpose of being human shields.  Like I've said time and time again, this is not my opinion, but is readily admitted by Hamas that this happens (and they encourage this).  So it's not a matter of hiding from the bombs, the Palestinians are running straight towards the bombs to die on purpose. 

So why must you and I continue to have the same discussion?  We seem to be coming to an understanding with one another.

I have stopped quoting Israeli and Western sources, and instead I have been using Hamas as my source.  They admit that they putting women and children in the bombing range because they want the to die.  So where is our miscommunicaton?  It's not me or the Israelis saying this, it's Hamas saying it.  Are you saying Hamas is lying?  Maybe I'm just not understanding what you are saying?

 

 



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Comrade Tovya said:

 

I think what I am saying is being lost... the Palestinians are not hiding from the bombs.  Israel actually drops leaflets and calls people on their cell phones to tell them to evacuate before the bombing... instead of hiding elsewhere, they all go into the building for the purpose of being human shields.  Like I've said time and time again, this is not my opinion, but is readily admitted by Hamas that this happens (and they encourage this).  So it's not a matter of hiding from the bombs, the Palestinians are running straight towards the bombs to die on purpose. 

So why must you and I continue to have the same discussion?  We seem to be coming to an understanding with one another.

I have stopped quoting Israeli and Western sources, and instead I have been using Hamas as my source.  They admit that they putting women and children in the bombing range because they want the to die.  So where is our miscommunicaton?  It's not me or the Israelis saying this, it's Hamas saying it.  Are you saying Hamas is lying?  Maybe I'm just not understanding what you are saying?

 

 

While I understand that there has been the call to Hamas leaders places, this was not the case with any of the topics I presented in the post you quoted. UN trucks and schools were not warned just bombed. Just this week UN and Red Cross is very pissed off because of another place in SP? Katarim where IDF specifically told Palestinians to go to, and it was still bombed. Then relief workers were not permitted to enter for days. These were gross examples where Israel definitely was not concerned with civilian or international workers lives.

Also, your leaflets, etc have not been used in nearly any of the airstrikes in Gaza during this war. That would ruin Israel's ability to destroy militant outposts, launching sites, and kill top Hamas leaders, all of whom would have fled.

Your right we have been comming to an undersanding, but what you are now claiming is largely inconsitent and and simply false nearly all the time.



Here is the source of the story I was detailing...

SourceOne

SourceTwo (This one below)

Sameh, aged three, and Ahmad, 18 months, cry all the time.

As she sits on the bed in al-Quds hospital in Gaza City, their mother Fatima al-Shamouny, 36, tries to comfort them.

But as she tells their - and her own - story, she sobs too.

The boys were found on Wednesday, with their dead father and unconscious mother nearby, four days after the emergency services said they began trying to reach the neighbourhood.

They were among 30 people Palestinian Red Crescent workers said they evacuated from Zeitoun, a south-eastern suburb of Gaza City, on Wednesday.

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said the paramedics found "shocking" scenes of wounded people huddled together in houses among dead bodies, weak after having had no food or water for several days.

In one home, the agency said, four small children were found sitting close to their dead mothers, "too weak to stand on their own".

It is not clear if Sameh and Ahmad were in that particular house - it may be that the unconscious Fatima was initially thought to be dead - but she says she and her toddlers were among those who had a long wait for help.

Survivors' accounts

The ICRC has accused the Israeli military of failing to live up to its obligations under international law to facilitate the evacuation or to care for the wounded.

The agency said it had been requesting safe passage for its ambulances to access the neighbourhood since 3 January, but only received permission to do so from the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) four days later.

The details of exactly what happened at the Shamouny family compound are still sketchy.

Survivors have told the BBC that 26 of the extended family's 65 members died in Israeli military operations.

Their accounts of shelling, and then ground troops surrounding their homes, cannot be independently verified.

Fatima, who was wounded in the chest, says two of her sons, her husband, her aunt, her uncle and her brother-in-law were all killed.

"One of my sons crawled to our neighbour's house - he was injured - and he called some of the local radio stations to ask for help. But the help arrived late. Everybody had died," she said.

"On the third day, I passed out. I don't know what happened until I found myself here in the hospital," she said.

Wael Faris al-Shamouny, 39, another member of the extended family, smoked and sipped black coffee as he sat on the floor in the hospital corridor.

He says he lost five sons and his wife, and believes some of the dead may have survived if given medical treatment earlier.

"We tried to help them, but we didn't have first aid things in our house. We spent days without food, without water - the wounded were bleeding for four days," he said.

"The ambulances came and they saved who they saved. There are still pieces of my wife, my sons and my cousins' bodies in the house."

ICRC criticism

The ICRC said the wounded had to be transported about a kilometre on a hand-pulled donkey cart because large earth walls erected by the Israeli army had made it impossible to bring ambulances into the neighbourhood.

Katarina Ritz, the ICRC's head of mission in Jerusalem, said experienced Palestinian emergency workers wept at the scenes they were confronted with.

She said Israeli troops were within about 100m of the houses in question, and that the ICRC believes the soldiers "must have been aware" of the presence of the wounded people, because of repeated requests from aid agencies for access.

Under international law, she said, even if there are security concerns meaning the injured cannot be evacuated, "the minimum is to treat these people, to feed these people, give them water, and keep them in a safe place".

The Israeli military said it was investigating the case. It said it is "engaged in a battle with the Hamas terrorist organisation that has deliberately used Palestinian civilians as human shields".

And it stressed it works in "close co-operation with international aid organisations during the fighting, so that civilians can be provided with assistance".

'Difficult' co-operation

Earlier in the week, an ICRC spokeswoman told the BBC attempts to co-ordinate safe passage for ambulances were so slow that people were dying as they waited.

Not all ambulance drivers in Gaza have been waiting for co-ordination with the Israeli military, and health officials in Gaza say 10 paramedics have been killed trying to rescue the wounded since the Israeli operation began.

Israeli Defence Ministry Spokesman Peter Lerner said that co-ordinating the movements of ambulances has been "extremely difficult because of heavy gunfire".

He said that even during the three-hour lull Israel declared to allow humanitarian operations, Hamas militants continued to shoot at Israeli forces.

Outside the hospital, as Fatima Shamouny told her story, dozens of people gathered as Thursday's ICRC-led convoy of ambulances prepared to leave.

They came with addresses where they believed injured people were trapped.

One man's hands shook so much with fear that he had to ask for help writing the directions down.

Finally, the convoy received clearance, and drove away.

It was headed back to Zeitoun, where the ICRC said there were reports of more injured people stranded, and another area in northern Gaza, which ICRC workers had not even reached yet.



Comrade Tovya said:
superchunk said:
Comrade Tovya said:

 

Uh, no.  If the IDF (actually, IAF) didn't care who they killed, they'd cluster bomb Gaza into the stone age.  Israel does take measures to try and prevent civilian casualties.  But if Hamas leaders are going to hide behind women and children, then you can't eliminate the possibility of such casualties.  Like I've show time and time again, Hamas leadership admits that they kid behind civilians for the purpose of those civilians dying. 

And as for the UN buildings, etc, Hamas was using those installations as bases of terror, and the UN didn nothing to prevent this (nor have they since 1967).  If the UN will not prevent terrorism from being commited in their vehicles and buildings, then they'll just have to accept that those things are in risk of destruction.  The UN is joke anyway, everyone knows that.  All talk, no action.

A) When Israel bombs/artilleries buildings where it is absolutely known a large number of civilians are hiding from the war, regardless if there are enemy combatants standing on top, you can only conclude that they don't care about civilian deaths. Its exactly the samething as Hamas shooting missiles into Israel. Both are inherently wrong and both shouldn't be allowed to happen.

Another point, about 6 days ago Israel bombed the ish out of an apartment bloc. UN and Red Cross, as usual, asked permission to access the area for the dead/injured. Israel refused for over 4 days. By the time they got in there more had died whom could probably have been helped and there were children, so starved of water/food that they couldn't even stand next to their dead mother's bodies. It isn't a mass region, Israel knew there were people there, civilians there needing help, yet they didn't allow them in. For what possibly purpose beyond letting them die/starve etc, would Israel not allow them in?

B) True there have been times Hamas has used these buildings/vehicles as transports. But, when UN specifically says this specific vehicle is delivering food DO NOT ATTACK I would think Israel could be nearly positive that one isn't a target. Yet they still shot and killed the driver and passenger and gravely wounded a 3rd person. Again, complete lack of care for civilian life.

Granted UN is a joke. But, that is partically caused by all security members taking advantage of their veto powers.

 

 

I think what I am saying is being lost... the Palestinians are not hiding from the bombs.  Israel actually drops leaflets and calls people on their cell phones to tell them to evacuate before the bombing... instead of hiding elsewhere, they all go into the building for the purpose of being human shields.  Like I've said time and time again, this is not my opinion, but is readily admitted by Hamas that this happens (and they encourage this).  So it's not a matter of hiding from the bombs, the Palestinians are running straight towards the bombs to die on purpose. 

So why must you and I continue to have the same discussion?  We seem to be coming to an understanding with one another.

I have stopped quoting Israeli and Western sources, and instead I have been using Hamas as my source.  They admit that they putting women and children in the bombing range because they want the to die.  So where is our miscommunicaton?  It's not me or the Israelis saying this, it's Hamas saying it.  Are you saying Hamas is lying?  Maybe I'm just not understanding what you are saying?

 

 

 

whatever u heard that from it's wrong , it's wrong

I'm in egyptian college now , I have 3453453453452345345345234523 friends who are from gaza , they are terrified as hell , thier families are all what they are thinking of these days

their families don't seek death they don't wanna die , no one wants to die , if u r saying this according to that stupid hammas guy then u r wrong

plz take it back,,

it's not that easy , it's not that easy



Comrade Tovya said:
superchunk said:
Comrade Tovya said:
 

 

Uh, no.  If the IDF (actually, IAF) didn't care who they killed, they'd cluster bomb Gaza into the stone age.  Israel does take measures to try and prevent civilian casualties.  But if Hamas leaders are going to hide behind women and children, then you can't eliminate the possibility of such casualties.  Like I've show time and time again, Hamas leadership admits that they kid behind civilians for the purpose of those civilians dying. 

And as for the UN buildings, etc, Hamas was using those installations as bases of terror, and the UN didn nothing to prevent this (nor have they since 1967).  If the UN will not prevent terrorism from being commited in their vehicles and buildings, then they'll just have to accept that those things are in risk of destruction.  The UN is joke anyway, everyone knows that.  All talk, no action.

A) When Israel bombs/artilleries buildings where it is absolutely known a large number of civilians are hiding from the war, regardless if there are enemy combatants standing on top, you can only conclude that they don't care about civilian deaths. Its exactly the samething as Hamas shooting missiles into Israel. Both are inherently wrong and both shouldn't be allowed to happen.

Another point, about 6 days ago Israel bombed the ish out of an apartment bloc. UN and Red Cross, as usual, asked permission to access the area for the dead/injured. Israel refused for over 4 days. By the time they got in there more had died whom could probably have been helped and there were children, so starved of water/food that they couldn't even stand next to their dead mother's bodies. It isn't a mass region, Israel knew there were people there, civilians there needing help, yet they didn't allow them in. For what possibly purpose beyond letting them die/starve etc, would Israel not allow them in?

B) True there have been times Hamas has used these buildings/vehicles as transports. But, when UN specifically says this specific vehicle is delivering food DO NOT ATTACK I would think Israel could be nearly positive that one isn't a target. Yet they still shot and killed the driver and passenger and gravely wounded a 3rd person. Again, complete lack of care for civilian life.

Granted UN is a joke. But, that is partically caused by all security members taking advantage of their veto powers.

 

 

I think what I am saying is being lost... the Palestinians are not hiding from the bombs.  Israel actually drops leaflets and calls people on their cell phones to tell them to evacuate before the bombing... instead of hiding elsewhere, they all go into the building for the purpose of being human shields.  Like I've said time and time again, this is not my opinion, but is readily admitted by Hamas that this happens (and they encourage this).  So it's not a matter of hiding from the bombs, the Palestinians are running straight towards the bombs to die on purpose. 

 

Where are the sources about this? Not that I doubt it.

Also, do you have an idea about how common this might be?

 



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Slimebeast said:
Comrade Tovya said:
superchunk said:
Comrade Tovya said:

 

Uh, no.  If the IDF (actually, IAF) didn't care who they killed, they'd cluster bomb Gaza into the stone age.  Israel does take measures to try and prevent civilian casualties.  But if Hamas leaders are going to hide behind women and children, then you can't eliminate the possibility of such casualties.  Like I've show time and time again, Hamas leadership admits that they kid behind civilians for the purpose of those civilians dying. 

And as for the UN buildings, etc, Hamas was using those installations as bases of terror, and the UN didn nothing to prevent this (nor have they since 1967).  If the UN will not prevent terrorism from being commited in their vehicles and buildings, then they'll just have to accept that those things are in risk of destruction.  The UN is joke anyway, everyone knows that.  All talk, no action.

A) When Israel bombs/artilleries buildings where it is absolutely known a large number of civilians are hiding from the war, regardless if there are enemy combatants standing on top, you can only conclude that they don't care about civilian deaths. Its exactly the samething as Hamas shooting missiles into Israel. Both are inherently wrong and both shouldn't be allowed to happen.

Another point, about 6 days ago Israel bombed the ish out of an apartment bloc. UN and Red Cross, as usual, asked permission to access the area for the dead/injured. Israel refused for over 4 days. By the time they got in there more had died whom could probably have been helped and there were children, so starved of water/food that they couldn't even stand next to their dead mother's bodies. It isn't a mass region, Israel knew there were people there, civilians there needing help, yet they didn't allow them in. For what possibly purpose beyond letting them die/starve etc, would Israel not allow them in?

B) True there have been times Hamas has used these buildings/vehicles as transports. But, when UN specifically says this specific vehicle is delivering food DO NOT ATTACK I would think Israel could be nearly positive that one isn't a target. Yet they still shot and killed the driver and passenger and gravely wounded a 3rd person. Again, complete lack of care for civilian life.

Granted UN is a joke. But, that is partically caused by all security members taking advantage of their veto powers.

 

 

I think what I am saying is being lost... the Palestinians are not hiding from the bombs.  Israel actually drops leaflets and calls people on their cell phones to tell them to evacuate before the bombing... instead of hiding elsewhere, they all go into the building for the purpose of being human shields.  Like I've said time and time again, this is not my opinion, but is readily admitted by Hamas that this happens (and they encourage this).  So it's not a matter of hiding from the bombs, the Palestinians are running straight towards the bombs to die on purpose. 

 

Where are the sources about this? Not that I doubt it.

Also, do you have an idea about how common this might be?

 

He has a video of some Hamas guy asking people to run to a bomb site that houses a Hamas leader.

Problem is, that was during pre-arrainged attacks on hamas leadership. Not, constant air bombing that is happening now. Big difference and the casualties now have absolutely nothing to do with any of the reports I have detailed. He is taking one example and trying to blanket the entire situation.

 



Slimebeast said:

Where are the sources about this? Not that I doubt it.

Also, do you have an idea about how common this might be?

 

leaflets

http://www.fanoos.com/special/israel_leaflets_warning.html

http://www.urlfan.com/local/israel_leaflets_northern_gazan_residents_to_leave_region/137349627.html

http://inthenews.co.uk/news/world/international-affairs/-caged-gazans-given-no-choice-by-israeli-leaflets-$1259494.htm

http://www.shimshon9.com/israel-drops-thousands-leaflets-gaza/

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=80377&sectionid=351020202

 

cell phone

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/01/israel-calls-th.html

http://intelligencenews.wordpress.com/tag/israel/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/03/israelandthepalestinians-middleeast

 

text message

http://thevirtuousrepublic.com/?p=2366

 

 

my understanding is that it is a fairly common practice for them.   i know they did it a lot back during the war against hezbollah



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MrBubbles said:
Slimebeast said:
 

Where are the sources about this? Not that I doubt it.

Also, do you have an idea about how common this might be?

 

leaflets

http://www.fanoos.com/special/israel_leaflets_warning.html

http://www.urlfan.com/local/israel_leaflets_northern_gazan_residents_to_leave_region/137349627.html

http://inthenews.co.uk/news/world/international-affairs/-caged-gazans-given-no-choice-by-israeli-leaflets-$1259494.htm

http://www.shimshon9.com/israel-drops-thousands-leaflets-gaza/

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=80377§ionid=351020202

 

cell phone

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/01/israel-calls-th.html

http://intelligencenews.wordpress.com/tag/israel/

"It now appears this technique has resulted in a backlash for the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF), as Gaza residents receiving such calls often rush to the roofs of potential target buildings in efforts to prevent the attacks. An article in The Australian reports that “in some cases, [Gaza] residents have gone up to the roof to show themselves to circling aircraft and succeeded in preventing the attack”. "

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/03/israelandthepalestinians-middleeast

 

text message

http://thevirtuousrepublic.com/?p=2366

 

 

my understanding is that it is a fairly common practice for them.   i know they did it a lot back during the war against hezbollah

Interesting. That could actually cause some casualties in situations where the Israelis aren't able to abort a targeted house bombing in time.

 



Slimebeast said:
Comrade Tovya said:
superchunk said:
Comrade Tovya said:

 

Uh, no.  If the IDF (actually, IAF) didn't care who they killed, they'd cluster bomb Gaza into the stone age.  Israel does take measures to try and prevent civilian casualties.  But if Hamas leaders are going to hide behind women and children, then you can't eliminate the possibility of such casualties.  Like I've show time and time again, Hamas leadership admits that they kid behind civilians for the purpose of those civilians dying. 

And as for the UN buildings, etc, Hamas was using those installations as bases of terror, and the UN didn nothing to prevent this (nor have they since 1967).  If the UN will not prevent terrorism from being commited in their vehicles and buildings, then they'll just have to accept that those things are in risk of destruction.  The UN is joke anyway, everyone knows that.  All talk, no action.

A) When Israel bombs/artilleries buildings where it is absolutely known a large number of civilians are hiding from the war, regardless if there are enemy combatants standing on top, you can only conclude that they don't care about civilian deaths. Its exactly the samething as Hamas shooting missiles into Israel. Both are inherently wrong and both shouldn't be allowed to happen.

Another point, about 6 days ago Israel bombed the ish out of an apartment bloc. UN and Red Cross, as usual, asked permission to access the area for the dead/injured. Israel refused for over 4 days. By the time they got in there more had died whom could probably have been helped and there were children, so starved of water/food that they couldn't even stand next to their dead mother's bodies. It isn't a mass region, Israel knew there were people there, civilians there needing help, yet they didn't allow them in. For what possibly purpose beyond letting them die/starve etc, would Israel not allow them in?

B) True there have been times Hamas has used these buildings/vehicles as transports. But, when UN specifically says this specific vehicle is delivering food DO NOT ATTACK I would think Israel could be nearly positive that one isn't a target. Yet they still shot and killed the driver and passenger and gravely wounded a 3rd person. Again, complete lack of care for civilian life.

Granted UN is a joke. But, that is partically caused by all security members taking advantage of their veto powers.

 

 

I think what I am saying is being lost... the Palestinians are not hiding from the bombs.  Israel actually drops leaflets and calls people on their cell phones to tell them to evacuate before the bombing... instead of hiding elsewhere, they all go into the building for the purpose of being human shields.  Like I've said time and time again, this is not my opinion, but is readily admitted by Hamas that this happens (and they encourage this).  So it's not a matter of hiding from the bombs, the Palestinians are running straight towards the bombs to die on purpose. 

 

Where are the sources about this? Not that I doubt it.

Also, do you have an idea about how common this might be?

 

 

I'll actually post more if needed?  There are a lot more instances of this... actually, the interviewed the son of Hamas' leader who was killed, and he said that he purposely put his wife and kids at the bomb site to die, and he admitted that the Israelis did pre-warn of the attack so that his family could be saved, but instead of sending his family away, he sent for his daughter-in-law, and asked if she would like to die with the family as well... that's nuts.



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Comrade Tovya said:
Slimebeast said:
Comrade Tovya said:
superchunk said:
Comrade Tovya said:
 

 

Uh, no.  If the IDF (actually, IAF) didn't care who they killed, they'd cluster bomb Gaza into the stone age.  Israel does take measures to try and prevent civilian casualties.  But if Hamas leaders are going to hide behind women and children, then you can't eliminate the possibility of such casualties.  Like I've show time and time again, Hamas leadership admits that they kid behind civilians for the purpose of those civilians dying. 

And as for the UN buildings, etc, Hamas was using those installations as bases of terror, and the UN didn nothing to prevent this (nor have they since 1967).  If the UN will not prevent terrorism from being commited in their vehicles and buildings, then they'll just have to accept that those things are in risk of destruction.  The UN is joke anyway, everyone knows that.  All talk, no action.

A) When Israel bombs/artilleries buildings where it is absolutely known a large number of civilians are hiding from the war, regardless if there are enemy combatants standing on top, you can only conclude that they don't care about civilian deaths. Its exactly the samething as Hamas shooting missiles into Israel. Both are inherently wrong and both shouldn't be allowed to happen.

Another point, about 6 days ago Israel bombed the ish out of an apartment bloc. UN and Red Cross, as usual, asked permission to access the area for the dead/injured. Israel refused for over 4 days. By the time they got in there more had died whom could probably have been helped and there were children, so starved of water/food that they couldn't even stand next to their dead mother's bodies. It isn't a mass region, Israel knew there were people there, civilians there needing help, yet they didn't allow them in. For what possibly purpose beyond letting them die/starve etc, would Israel not allow them in?

B) True there have been times Hamas has used these buildings/vehicles as transports. But, when UN specifically says this specific vehicle is delivering food DO NOT ATTACK I would think Israel could be nearly positive that one isn't a target. Yet they still shot and killed the driver and passenger and gravely wounded a 3rd person. Again, complete lack of care for civilian life.

Granted UN is a joke. But, that is partically caused by all security members taking advantage of their veto powers.

 

 

I think what I am saying is being lost... the Palestinians are not hiding from the bombs.  Israel actually drops leaflets and calls people on their cell phones to tell them to evacuate before the bombing... instead of hiding elsewhere, they all go into the building for the purpose of being human shields.  Like I've said time and time again, this is not my opinion, but is readily admitted by Hamas that this happens (and they encourage this).  So it's not a matter of hiding from the bombs, the Palestinians are running straight towards the bombs to die on purpose. 

 

Where are the sources about this? Not that I doubt it.

Also, do you have an idea about how common this might be?

 

 

I'll actually post more if needed?  There are a lot more instances of this... actually, the interviewed the son of Hamas' leader who was killed, and he said that he purposely put his wife and kids at the bomb site to die, and he admitted that the Israelis did pre-warn of the attack so that his family could be saved, but instead of sending his family away, he sent for his daughter-in-law, and asked if she would like to die with the family as well... that's nuts.

 

Hmm.. these kind of rhethorics are expected from Hamas leaders since they're very religious and extreme.

But I wonder how often it actually happens that civilians get killed when acting like human shields. Because I know it's usually hard for Hamas to recruit suicide bombers, and that's a lot more "heroic" and meaningful way to die than to simply act as a human sacrifice against an enemy bomb or missile, so I doubt many Palestinians are actually willing to die that way.