My appologies to Legend11 on my erroneous error. I obviously jump the gun on assuming which console he was an advocate of so I'll edit my post to make it more appropriate and include an appology on that point. 

Still I wouldn't call the argument BS outside of that error, its still relevant to the attacks I frequently see on the Wii's user base and game lineup. I agree it could have been worded better, but its not so out of place that I feel it cannot stand on its own.

@Your Mother: His attacks on the Wii and the preferences of Wii gamers was no more founded than my own criticism of his own philosophy ultimately invalidating your suggestion of myself being the intollerant persecutor. He attacked the Wii, its user base and games, I responded by attacking what I thought was his preference to illustrate no one is in the clear this early in the generation. I believe you're mistaken in assuming my post was simply an attack on personal opinion without a greater point to be made. I'm sorry if you dissagree with that suggestion but I simply cannot conciede to your claims just as I'm sure you cannot conciede to mine.

@Vizunary: Being able to afford something or put thousands of dollars into it doesn't justify the decision or make it any less flawed or validated. You argument is moot. If you want to invest in a 360 or PS3, that's fine, but I'm not going to stand by and let someone bash the Wii and its games when they've no room themselves to speak of their own choices. All three consoles are in equally precarious situations with all three fanbases convincing themselves they're the ones doing it right, my retaliation against Legend11 wasn't so much to bash the PS3 (or 360) and elevate the Wii above them but to illustrate that he's no room to talk on the issues he's chosen to attack the Wii on.

@Ray007: Unless Gballzack is a six foot tall black man, I'm pretty sure you've got the wrong person. And if your merit of comparison is any individual attacking other people's personal tastes then you could make the argument that 40% of the people in this forum (if not more) are Gballzack. Of course I'm sure this is only seen as an elaborate lie and the connotation between myself and Mr. Gballzack will continue on, but I'm not about to let such things derail my train of thought. You're not the first person to bring this up and I doubt you'll be the last.

In retrospect since everytime someone bashes the PS3 they're automatically assumed to be a Wii fanboy, I don't feel quite so bad about my mistake (in fact I would think more 360 gamers are mistaken for Wii gamers than they ever are for PS3 gamers) but irregardless I will not deny the fact that I have indeed made a mistake and own up to it.

I never considered graphics to be the most important aspect, games, price, etc. are always bigger factors

I was looking forward to this.

Erroneous error? That's like Alexander Haig when he said the US should exercise "careful caution". God you have a way of peppering your run-on paragraphs sentences with useless redundancy.

@Your Mother: His attacks on the Wii and the preferences of Wii gamers was no more founded than my own criticism of his own philosophy ultimately invalidating your suggestion of I being the intollerant persecutor.

So... why do it? Why stoop down to his level then? Both you guys are intolerant and intolerable as far as I'm concerned if you guys keep this up.

@Vizunary: Being able to afford something or put thousands of dollars into doesn't justify the decision or make it any less flawed or validated. You argument is moot.

Twist the words around against your favor and the same comment can be made: Your argument is also moot in his eyes. That doesn't make either him necessarily correct. That certainly doesn't make you correct either.

I admit I made a foolish and embarassing mistake, and once again must appologize to Legend11 for assuming he was a PS3 fanboy. But I still think he's being a bitter brat about the Wii

Let's see:  "I apologize to Legend11 but I still think he's being a bitter brat"

So you are not apologizing at all. Way to hide your true meaning in another cluster of useless, fluffy words.

and since the PS3 and 360 are of much the same vein of gaming, most of my points still stand irregardless the console prefence, heck I could just switch PS3 with 360 in the debate and everything would still stand. In fact, I might do that. I'd also like to point out the hypocrisy of all those acting like its such a horrible error to assume someone bashing the Wii is a PS3 gamer as by the flip side of that coin when anyone bashes the PS3 on this forum, they're automatically assumed to be a Wii gamer. In fact I would like to point out that more people on this forum have probably mistaken 360 gamers for Wii gamers than anyone has for PS3 gamers here.

Go ahead. We can all twist words the very same way you do.

And you must give forum users more credit than you do now - you can't possibly believe the VGChartz collective is anywhere near as stupid as you think they are. We all see right through your guise.

I appologize my grammar is not to your liking.

Because my intent was to illustrate the hypocrisy of his claims against the Wii by showing him just how much the criticism of game philosophy could be turned around on what I thought was his system of choice. It's not a simple matter of exchanging of bashed opinions, but rather a means of illustrating a point. I realize I had gotten very carried away with myself and may have loss many readers as to the original purpose of my response but its not as simple an exchange as you would suggest it is.

My aim wasn't to force my ideals on him but to show his comment was largely irrelevant within the context of the discussion. Pointing out the irrelevancy of a person's comment on a debate does not require them to accepting the oppossing individual's stance on the debate, just acknowledgement the context of the debate itself.

I appologized for assuming he was a PS3 fanboy not that I stood up to him on attacking the Wii, I still think he's a bitter brat for attacking the Wii on the basis he did. The two are completely different issues and an appology for my error does not entail me recanting my entire debate or postion.

I'm sorry you feel I'm out to belittle and demean every individual I come across on this forum but the honest truth is the only mistake I've made in this entire thread is assuming Legend11 was a Ps3 gamer. That's all. I see no error in my argument otherwise and see no folly in my humble responses to my fellow members.

Your entire basis of attack on my response seems to be largely rooted in assuming my intentions are far more malicious than they really are. Either way you've demonstrated you're not equiped to handle this discussion beyond the point its been taken so I would feel it best we end it here. Or if you would like to persist and insist I do nothing but twist words and conspire to fool others with tricky wording then fine, I've nothing better to do myself honestly.

If graphics didnt matter then why would devs(i mean all devs including Nintendos) push the hardware they dev for.
If grpahics didnt matter then why did people complain that the Halo3 Beta didnt look good enough.
If graphics didnt matter why are Sony and MS making there consoles this graphically capable.

I don't particularaly think anyone here is suggesting graphics don't matter one bit what-so-ever, just that they are not as important as some would suggest they are. My personal stance was that they're a foolish endeavor to pursue in and only for themselves as there are greater things at play in creating a truly well rounded game, but not that they were pointless altogether. When Graphics become the sole focus of a console or game then most can agree there is a certain element of trouble and short sightedness as arguably too much investment is being placed in an aspect of gaming that is destined to fade with time.

I find it funny that now that the Wii is by far the weakest graphical console, that suddenly every Wii owner is saying: 'oh graphics are good enough as they are, further improvement is really just a tiny thing at this point.'

Also if you can't see what a huge leap there is between last gen graphics and this gen then you really are either lying to yourself or not looking hard enough. Just check a game such as Resident Evil 4 which by last gen standards was a great looking game, but in about two years it's already totally outdated looking and we're still in the beginning of this generation.

If games like Gears, Unreal, Call of Duty, Mass Effect and others can be done this early in the generation can you even imagine what the games are gonna look and play like at the end?

Also, saying that graphics is the only difference between what 360 and PS3 games can do and Wii games is totally ignoring all the other things that are totally impossible on Wii and possible on those other two consoles because of the power under the hood.

Edit: Also, I seem to notice a trend lately that keeps trying to say that 360 and PS3 are both FPS consoles. Look at the lineup of big games for both consoles for the rest of the year, the majority are not FPS games and are either RPG/Action or Adventure type games.

13-15 year old audience huh? So I guess all the people playing Halo who are of all ages much older than that are made up... 

Obviously, I'm glad you've chosen an issue relevant to the subject matter of this debate. How else better to illustrate the folly of my argument than by attacking a petty non-issue. Can you point out any other flaws in my grammar to substantiate this personal attack on my usage of the english langauge, or is this isolated incident all you have? I'm somewhat amused you would suggest myself to be petty but you yourself choose to attack such a childish pet peeve as the spear head of your counter. Way to take the high ground. :)

The skill or tact in which I carried out my response does not invalidate the intent nor does it prove my error. At best you can say I made a poor argument, but the fact remains my intent of a purpose higher than simply exchanging dismisals of opinion, which you claimed wasn't, is in fact there.

Since this is in no way relevant to my argumentative stance, I fail to see your point. If he thinks my illustrating his irrelevancy is in itself irrelevant then we simple agree to disagree, as I orignally ended my response to him with. Simple as that. By your logic, why argue in the first place if every person can just choose to ignore one another. Your postion is that of a moot point. It takes more than simply making the same outlandish claim repeatedly for it to stick, you need to provide logic and display and understanding of the concept at hand.

Your inability to grasp this simple concept concerns me. I appologized to Legend11 where appologies were due, but that does not entail retracting my entire statement to make peace with him. Appologies are not always acts of peace, they're often acts of principle. In no way did I ever say I appologized for my entire post. I only ever appologized for my error, which was assuming he was a PS3 fanboy. Whether you understand this or not, the two matters are very different. Unless you can provide some logic to show that an appology of a single point entails a retracting of all that was said in its entirety, then you've no room to debate.

Again, all I see you doing is spinning your wheels and recycling the same misconstrewed perception of the debate. I'm not sure how its really fair for you to do such a poor job debating then expect me to pick up the slack.

Funny, I wonder if I brought up the fact several mods pm'd me suggesting me to ignore you because you were a rather nasty troll you'd actually believe me. But an unsubstantiated claim is an unsubstantiated claim. And unless those members choose to speak for themselves I don't see any point in assuming you're their unofficial spokesman. In the end you're just trying to feign the majority's voice whether true or not, an act of desperation, not confidence.

And thus you end this little fiasco by simply dodging the sum of my reply by making a series of brash and unsubstantiated claims about myself. I wonder if you're honestly aware of the hypocrisy you've displayed in your responses. Oh well, I've no reason to let this become a matter of hostility. Have a good day at work.

 Talk to me when a game like Gears is somehow revolutionary, Gears doesn't play any differently than dozens of other shooters