I want to reject this out of hand based on principles outlined in my post at the top of the page, but only because you're equating sales with objective quality. The idea of recognizing values in something is fine, though it only amounts to acknolwedging an agreed-upon set of subjective criteria.

Rearranging the goalposts, are we? That's rather disappointing behavior to engage in. It just highlights your desire to see a particular game "win" at any cost, even if that cost is to discount anything which actually does better than what you want to "win". Games sold are games sold.

You can claim all you like that games somehow "don't count" for a myriad of ridiculous reasons, but consumers speak with their wallets. They cast their votes for what games are worthwhile by buying them, not by arguing that their purchases don't count because of some self-imagined criteria.

Wow Kurakasa is back, I guess not for a long time if he keeps on trolling.

The Wii hate is unbelievable, so many bitter fanboys you need to relax, I mean it. I just can't imagine how frustrated some people are over Wii being successful. This guy Kurakasa was banned for trolling on the Wii, and as soon as he comes back he starts doing it again. Some people are way too involved with their consoles it may be bad for their health.

Not really. As I said, I should have mentioned that I was talking about home consoles since it is pretty certain that someone will jump on that. But next time, I will do that. Just for you! What is that about me wanting some game to "win"? I just asked that do you think that GTA is the best game on current HOME consoles. Do you? If it makes you feel better, after wii sports/play.

Yes, I can. But you can't call those reasons (bundled) ridicilous just because you disagree with me. If you are forced to get wii sports with the console, how does that count as "consumers speaking with their wallets"?

edit:

@trestres

reported

I reiterate, you are rearranging goalposts. If you were not, you would not be trying to exclude anything from the list. Even if you limit your list to consoles, you cannot discount games simply because of pack-in or minigame collection status.

And as for pack-ins counting or not, let's take a logical look at the process. A product with a packed-in complimentary product where the packed-in part enhances the experience of the original product will sell better than the product alone. This is why brief pack-ins of popular titles cause a brief surge of console sales when they happen for consoles like the PS3 and 360. However, notice how sales of consoles drop back to normal (as do sales of the game packed in) once the initial wave of purchasers for the game subsides. For sustained high sales of a product with a pack-in, there has to be value inherent in the pack-in. The short of this is, were Wii Sports not selling systems, the Wii's sales would have dropped off significantly once the appeal of Wii Sports wore out.

Sky Render, doesn't that only work as a point of comparison when there is a model without the pack-in?

Not saying that Wii Sports doesn't count, because it does, I am just asking.

I guess you specificly don't have to recognize that Nintendo makes some of the best franchises around.  But the games are both critical and comercial successes, and those in the video game community recognize them as such.  You don't have to like them to admit that they are good.

I was never personally a fan of the 3D GTAs, but lots of people like them and call them the best sandbox games out there.  Even though I think that The Hulk: Ultimate Destruction was the best sandbox experience I have ever had, I can still recognize GTA as a great game, even if I don't really understand why.

As I said, you can count them if you want. I don't. I really don't care about your reasonings for them to be counted.

But since you aren't going to answer my question, it looks like that logic applies only to nintendo-games. :)

Actually, I really do. I don't consider something quality because a lot of people like it. I have to like it, too. :)

It is a lot harder to measure the relative value of a product when only one iteration of the product exists, it's true. However, there are trends you can look at. Perpetually high and rising sales of a product, for example, are an indicator that something about the product as it stands is highly appealing, and that the potential market for said product has not yet hit a saturation point.

Whether you can accredit this to a perpetually packed in component of the product can only effectively be measured by observing how authentically typical consumers (ie. ones who do not rant about the product online) react to it. Mainstream media tends to pay attention to this far more than enthusiast media, I find, but that's beside the point.