By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Sony Discussion - Play Magazine Enters "Lair", Wants to Have Its Babies

Poseidon on 21 July 2007
Bodhesatva said:
Poseidon said:
BenKenobi88 said:

PC FPSs and RTSs will always be better than console versions...unless it's some crazy control scheme that only seems to work with dual analog sticks or something...

Like I said in my earlier post, the mouse/keyboard combo isn't everyones cup of tea.


"Not your cup of tea" is far different from "not as precise." It's totally cool if you don't personally prefer the mouse/keyboard. 

Gamepad may not be as precise, but it falters elsewhere, such as when you are up-close and personal. Again, going back to my Shadowrun evidence, mouse/keyboard being the "best of the best" is a myth; if you are deadly with a gamepad, why change only because the majority feel that the mouse/keyboard is a more viable option?



Around the Network
Bodhesatva on 21 July 2007
Poseidon said:
Bodhesatva said:
Poseidon said:
BenKenobi88 said:

PC FPSs and RTSs will always be better than console versions...unless it's some crazy control scheme that only seems to work with dual analog sticks or something...

Like I said in my earlier post, the mouse/keyboard combo isn't everyones cup of tea.


"Not your cup of tea" is far different from "not as precise." It's totally cool if you don't personally prefer the mouse/keyboard.

Gamepad may not be as precise, but it falters elsewhere, such as when you are up-close and personal. Again, going back to my Shadowrun evidence, mouse/keyboard being the "best of the best" is a myth; if you are deadly with a gamepad, why change only because the majority feel that the mouse/keyboard is a more viable option?


Your Shadowrun evidence is completely made up, that's why. The Console version of the game has auto aim built in, as well as a softened recoil, to compensate for the inferior control scheme. Shadowrun is, in fact, even more evidence that the PC is superior for control. This information can be viewed here:

http://digg.com/xbox_360/LIVE_crossplatform_test_of_Shadowrun_today_Who_is_better:_Console_or_PC_

Also look here:

http://www.snackbar-games.com/reviews/xbox_360/shadowrun-675.html

Relevant text: Designers have tweaked the Xbox 360's throw distance and analog-stick detection software as well as providing a better Auto-aim assist to help console gamers better compete against their mouse/keyboarding wielding computer foes in cross-platform play. I was able to hold my own with the 360-controller against the vaunted mouse/keyboard control scheme, so it would appear that they've achieved success in supressing the controller's weaknesses and mitigating its inherent limitations.

 



http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/Arkives/Disccopy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D">http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/Arkives/Disccopy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D">

kber81 on 21 July 2007
Bodhesatva said:

What? This isn't relevant to my post. You said that most people don't agree that PC games are the best.

Again, if you believe that the best measurement for system quality is popularity, then the PS3 is the least popular platform of this generation (it's difficult to tell how many people have high end PCs). Therefore, the PS3 (or PC, perhaps, although I think at least 4 million people have bought high end PCs in the last 2 years) is the worst platform of this generation.

 


Your generalization is silly. In this particular matter people percieve console games better because... it's true. Please provide me 10 outstanding games that I can't play on X or PS3... I can provide at least 50 totally awesome titles that will never appear on PC. Sorry but this is wrong forum to praise PC



Bodhesatva on 21 July 2007
kber81 said:
Bodhesatva said:

What? This isn't relevant to my post. You said that most people don't agree that PC games are the best.

Again, if you believe that the best measurement for system quality is popularity, then the PS3 is the least popular platform of this generation (it's difficult to tell how many people have high end PCs). Therefore, the PS3 (or PC, perhaps, although I think at least 4 million people have bought high end PCs in the last 2 years) is the worst platform of this generation.

 


Your generalization is silly. In this particular matter people percieve console games better because... it's true. Please provide me 10 outstanding games that I can't play on X or PS3... I can provide at least 50 totally awesome titles that will never appear on PC. Sorry but this is wrong forum to praise PC


You don't compare every single console to the PC, you compare them platform by platform. That's your problem, here. It isn't "everything in the world against the PC," it's "Wii against PS3 against 360 against PC." And sure, I will provice you with 10 games you can't play on your PS3:

Hellgate: London
Crysis
Starcraft II
Farcry II
Spore
BioShock
Huxley
Company of Heroes
World of Warcraft (and the Burning Crusade expansion)
Age of Conan
Warhammer Online
GTR 2
Bejeweled Energy
The Sims 2

I can come up with more, of course, but 14 should be enough, since you only asked for 10.



http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/Arkives/Disccopy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D">http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/Arkives/Disccopy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D">

Poseidon on 21 July 2007
Bodhesatva said:
Poseidon said:
Bodhesatva said:
Poseidon said:
BenKenobi88 said:

PC FPSs and RTSs will always be better than console versions...unless it's some crazy control scheme that only seems to work with dual analog sticks or something...

Like I said in my earlier post, the mouse/keyboard combo isn't everyones cup of tea.


"Not your cup of tea" is far different from "not as precise." It's totally cool if you don't personally prefer the mouse/keyboard.

Gamepad may not be as precise, but it falters elsewhere, such as when you are up-close and personal. Again, going back to my Shadowrun evidence, mouse/keyboard being the "best of the best" is a myth; if you are deadly with a gamepad, why change only because the majority feel that the mouse/keyboard is a more viable option?


Your Shadowrun evidence is completely made up, that's why. The Console version of the game has auto aim built in, as well as a softened recoil, to compensate for the inferior control scheme. Shadowrun is, in fact, even more evidence that the PC is superior for control. This information can be viewed here:

http://digg.com/xbox_360/LIVE_crossplatform_test_of_Shadowrun_today_Who_is_better:_Console_or_PC_

Also look here:

http://www.snackbar-games.com/reviews/xbox_360/shadowrun-675.html

Relevant text: Designers have tweaked the Xbox 360's throw distance and analog-stick detection software as well as providing a better Auto-aim assist to help console gamers better compete against their mouse/keyboarding wielding computer foes in cross-platform play. I was able to hold my own with the 360-controller against the vaunted mouse/keyboard control scheme, so it would appear that they've achieved success in supressing the controller's weaknesses and mitigating its inherent limitations.

 


That is exactly what the design team for Shadowrun™ was thinking when we realized we wanted to have cross-platform play between the Xbox 360® and players using Windows Vista™.  In this article I’ll walk you through the process we went through and some of our general design philosophy.

So how do you balance a shooter where console and PC players can play against each other?  Controller vs. mouse plus keyboard, which is better?  It’s a question that has been on gamers' minds ever since shooters started appearing on consoles.  Obviously the mouse is superior, right?  I mean the mouse is designed as a hyper-sensitive pointing device and has been refined over the years specifically for that purpose.  We all know that the most important element in any shooter game is the ability to quickly get your crosshair over the enemy and pull the trigger.  So given that, it’s obvious that the mouse will win every time in a fire fight, regardless of the game, right?  Wrong. Don’t misunderstand me, that is exactly what every single member of the design team thought, including me, until we actually tried it.  So, what actually happened when we played our first cross-platform game?  The controller players trounced the mouse/keyboard players.  It wasn’t even close; the mouse players got stomped on. Over and over.  So what happened?  Did the mouse players just suck?  Or was the controller actually a superior aiming device?  Short answer: the mouse is better at aiming, but the controller is better at gaming.  Long answer: read on.

You're right, they the gamepad players had auto-assist on to help, but there is more to the story:

To everyone’s surprise, the mouse players got owned.  Ok, so we overdid the numbers, no big deal.  We made some tweaks and tried it again.  Same result.  This cycle continued until we had everything (auto-aim, targeting assistance, and accuracy) turned back on for the mouse.  It was a lot closer, but the mouse players were still losing.  WTF?  Did the mouse players just suck?  No, some of our testers play semi-professional gaming, so we knew they didn’t totally suck. (In fact, they recently dominated in a shooter tournament at PAX.)  Was it because our game plays so much differently than a standard shooter?  Partially, but we also found a bug.  The mouse players were getting slightly more recoil when shot, and this caused them to lose most of their fire fights.  So we fixed that, and the mouse players finally started to win.  So now we knew we were close to having a balanced game. 

Again, we turned off all the targeting assistance stuff for the mouse, and tested.  It was pretty even.  The mouse players were a little better at long range combat, but the controller players were better close in.



Around the Network
Bodhesatva on 21 July 2007
Poseidon said:
Bodhesatva said:
Poseidon said:
Bodhesatva said:
Poseidon said:
BenKenobi88 said:

PC FPSs and RTSs will always be better than console versions...unless it's some crazy control scheme that only seems to work with dual analog sticks or something...

Like I said in my earlier post, the mouse/keyboard combo isn't everyones cup of tea.


"Not your cup of tea" is far different from "not as precise." It's totally cool if you don't personally prefer the mouse/keyboard.

Gamepad may not be as precise, but it falters elsewhere, such as when you are up-close and personal. Again, going back to my Shadowrun evidence, mouse/keyboard being the "best of the best" is a myth; if you are deadly with a gamepad, why change only because the majority feel that the mouse/keyboard is a more viable option?


Your Shadowrun evidence is completely made up, that's why. The Console version of the game has auto aim built in, as well as a softened recoil, to compensate for the inferior control scheme. Shadowrun is, in fact, even more evidence that the PC is superior for control. This information can be viewed here:

http://digg.com/xbox_360/LIVE_crossplatform_test_of_Shadowrun_today_Who_is_better:_Console_or_PC_

Also look here:

http://www.snackbar-games.com/reviews/xbox_360/shadowrun-675.html

Relevant text: Designers have tweaked the Xbox 360's throw distance and analog-stick detection software as well as providing a better Auto-aim assist to help console gamers better compete against their mouse/keyboarding wielding computer foes in cross-platform play. I was able to hold my own with the 360-controller against the vaunted mouse/keyboard control scheme, so it would appear that they've achieved success in supressing the controller's weaknesses and mitigating its inherent limitations.

 


That is exactly what the design team for Shadowrun™ was thinking when we realized we wanted to have cross-platform play between the Xbox 360® and players using Windows Vista™. In this article I’ll walk you through the process we went through and some of our general design philosophy.

So how do you balance a shooter where console and PC players can play against each other? Controller vs. mouse plus keyboard, which is better? It’s a question that has been on gamers' minds ever since shooters started appearing on consoles. Obviously the mouse is superior, right? I mean the mouse is designed as a hyper-sensitive pointing device and has been refined over the years specifically for that purpose. We all know that the most important element in any shooter game is the ability to quickly get your crosshair over the enemy and pull the trigger. So given that, it’s obvious that the mouse will win every time in a fire fight, regardless of the game, right? Wrong. Don’t misunderstand me, that is exactly what every single member of the design team thought, including me, until we actually tried it. So, what actually happened when we played our first cross-platform game? The controller players trounced the mouse/keyboard players. It wasn’t even close; the mouse players got stomped on. Over and over. So what happened? Did the mouse players just suck? Or was the controller actually a superior aiming device? Short answer: the mouse is better at aiming, but the controller is better at gaming. Long answer: read on.

You're right, they the gamepad players had auto-assist on to help, but there is more to the story:

To everyone’s surprise, the mouse players got owned. Ok, so we overdid the numbers, no big deal. We made some tweaks and tried it again. Same result. This cycle continued until we had everything (auto-aim, targeting assistance, and accuracy) turned back on for the mouse. It was a lot closer, but the mouse players were still losing. WTF? Did the mouse players just suck? No, some of our testers play semi-professional gaming, so we knew they didn’t totally suck. (In fact, they recently dominated in a shooter tournament at PAX.) Was it because our game plays so much differently than a standard shooter? Partially, but we also found a bug. The mouse players were getting slightly more recoil when shot, and this caused them to lose most of their fire fights. So we fixed that, and the mouse players finally started to win. So now we knew we were close to having a balanced game.

Again, we turned off all the targeting assistance stuff for the mouse, and tested. It was pretty even. The mouse players were a little better at long range combat, but the controller players were better close in.


That was a beta test! Are you just being deliberately silly? Go on Shadowrun right now and see. Have you even played it? The game has fallen apart because the PC gamers are trouncing the 360 players, despite the fact that the auto aim is built in for the 360. The beta test was a spectacular failure.

Here's what you have: a single test for a single game where game pad users were able to simply keep up. Since that time, the PC players have moved considerably beyond the game pad users for that same game -- even though that game was designed for parity. Furthermore, every other example of cross platforming in history has shown PC users trouncing their counterparts. It's the reason why Valve and Infinity Ward have both rejected cross platform play outright. 



http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/Arkives/Disccopy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D">http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/Arkives/Disccopy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D">

kber81 on 21 July 2007

@ Bodhesatva

Let's say we are both happy with our choices. Your arguments against PS3 just pissed me off a bit.

BTW:

You can use mouse and keyboard with PS3 too. I think every "real" FPS's gamer will buy it for Unreal III.



Bodhesatva on 21 July 2007
kber81 said:

@ Bodhesatva

Let's say we are both happy with our choices. Your arguments against PS3 just pissed me a bit.


Yeah, that's what I was going for, really. I absolutely didn't want to discredit the PS3: I just want people to stop using specific arguments in favor of it. I said this to Akuma, but I will repeat it here: the PS3 doesn't have the best graphics (that's the PC) or the best controls (ditto) or the largest library of games (360 or Wii) or the lowest price point (Wii).

Instead of using those arguments, how about we all just say "I like my system best, because it has the games I want to play," and be done with it. Because that's a perfectly acceptable argument!

<3



http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/Arkives/Disccopy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D">http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/Arkives/Disccopy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D">

ckmlb on 21 July 2007
Bodhesatva said:
kber81 said:


Yeah, that's what I was going for, really. I absolutely didn't want to discredit the PS3: I just want people to stop using specific arguments in favor of it. I said this to Akuma, but I will repeat it here: the PS3 doesn't have the best graphics (that's the PC) or the best controls (ditto) or the largest library of games (360 or Wii) or the lowest price point (Wii).

Instead of using those arguments, how about we all just say "I like my system best, because it has the games I want to play," and be done with it. Because that's a perfectly acceptable argument!

<3


 Nice job including the Wii in there;)



Thanks to Blacksaber for the sig!

Bodhesatva on 21 July 2007
ckmlb said:
Bodhesatva said:
kber81 said:


Yeah, that's what I was going for, really. I absolutely didn't want to discredit the PS3: I just want people to stop using specific arguments in favor of it. I said this to Akuma, but I will repeat it here: the PS3 doesn't have the best graphics (that's the PC) or the best controls (ditto) or the largest library of games (360 or Wii) or the lowest price point (Wii).

Instead of using those arguments, how about we all just say "I like my system best, because it has the games I want to play," and be done with it. Because that's a perfectly acceptable argument!

<3


Nice job including the Wii in there;)


 <3 ;)



http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/Arkives/Disccopy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D">http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/Arkives/Disccopy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D">