Esmoreit said: StanGable said: I think it is the right time for the U.S. to go and kick some ass! We need to put European nations back in their place! Would that include western Europe, Stan? Please think or elaborate before you post standard-idiot rethoric. Also Rock-On: one of the reasons that Putin is so popular is that he's one of the few Russians that don't drink. I read an opinionated letter this morning in a newspaper where someone indeed pointed out that the acknowledgement of Abchazië and S.Ossetia is also a statement against the US/EU's acknowledgement of the indepence of Kosovo. The writer even said that it's hypocrite for the EU/US to berate Russia for doing the same thing now within Georgia. But, this is definatly not the same thing. When Kosovo demanded independence from Serbia, they did so through politics, backed by the UN and with no blood at all. Neither the US or EU stepped in with millitary force, and thus did not occupy large parts of Serbia to "aide" Kosovo. And again, there was no blood involved when Kosovo gained independence.

Declaring independence through political means is largely impertinent in regards to the legitimacy of the declaration, and it does not give a nation the right to declare independence. There are usually three circumstances that are considered when determining the legitimacy of a nation's declaration of independence. The problem with Kosovo is that it displays the circumstances of a nation that can legally declare independence, but taken from another point of view, it does not display those circumstances. That is why there is such a divide in the world over whether Kosovo's independence is legal or not. Then there is the dispute over the meaning of UN Resolution 1244 which reaffirms the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Serbia, but also authorizes the UN to facilitate a political process to determine Kosovo's future status. Then we have Russia's ascertation that Kosovo serves as a precedent for the resolution of other secessionist disputes. The US and most of Western Europe do not believe it sets a precedent. This is why the move by Russia is such a provocative move; it is forcing the international order to decide on whether the Kosovar resolution is precedent or not.

 

 

MrBubbles said: georgia is the aggressor as much as the russians were actually peacekeepers. lets see...the ossetians(who have been funded and supplied by russia) keep attacking and violate a cease fire. so georgia has had enough. their attack leaving under 100 people dead, mostly fighters. russia then invades georgia, cluster bombs civilian areas, loots, shoots journalists, burn down towns, and intentionally killed civilians. i get the information from unbiased sources like HRW. i guess your russian news services are much more likely to be telling the truth though since emperor putin tells them what to say.

 

It's very interesting that with low-medium amount of editing that's exactly what happened with Iraq too...

 

Also, I don't see how mentining the US is the only nation to utilize Nuclear weapons so far will reflect badly on someone. Yeah the US got attacked by Japan, but that doesn't mean that there should have been nuclear weapons involved, not at all. It's like me having a gun and shooting anyone who slaps/punches me just because I can and expect it to be justified. Then again, knowing the US culture that happens a hell of a lot too....

 

As to the actual topic, I'm only gonna agree with Russia here because they do have a point, if Kosovo pulled it off I don't see why these two provinces should not either. Yeah sure it will undermine the Georgian image of sovereignty (sp?) but no one gave a shit about that during the Kosovo split so I'm throwing a BS flag at that excuse.

I'm not justifying Americas use of nukes in WWII, but you relaize that the bombing of pearl harbor was more than just a "slap".


5 of 8 battleships at Pearl Harbor were sunk, sinking, or totally damaged. All were at least damaged

3 cruisers, 3 destroyers, and a seaplane tender were severely damaged

96 army aircraft and 92 navy aircraft were destroyed and 159 more damaged

Also, over 2,400 men were killed and more than 2,000 wounded.


the SEVERELY crippled the navy in that area, leaving the US open for further attack had they wanted to.  had they hit the onshore factories at Pearl Harbor, the Allies would have lost the pacific front more-than-likeley.

MrBubbles said: megaman79 said: The US is the only country to launch a Nuclear attack, you better have a leader who talks first, instead of attacking first.   seeing as the US was attacked by japan this comment doesnt reflect well on you.

Japan attacked USA first by bombing Pearl harbour back in December 1941. USA had no alternative to drop the nuclear bombs on Japan: Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Japanese surrendered immediately after the second nuclear bomb.

 

Jackson50 said: Esmoreit said: StanGable said: I think it is the right time for the U.S. to go and kick some ass! We need to put European nations back in their place! Would that include western Europe, Stan? Please think or elaborate before you post standard-idiot rethoric. Also Rock-On: one of the reasons that Putin is so popular is that he's one of the few Russians that don't drink. I read an opinionated letter this morning in a newspaper where someone indeed pointed out that the acknowledgement of Abchazië and S.Ossetia is also a statement against the US/EU's acknowledgement of the indepence of Kosovo. The writer even said that it's hypocrite for the EU/US to berate Russia for doing the same thing now within Georgia. But, this is definatly not the same thing. When Kosovo demanded independence from Serbia, they did so through politics, backed by the UN and with no blood at all. Neither the US or EU stepped in with millitary force, and thus did not occupy large parts of Serbia to "aide" Kosovo. And again, there was no blood involved when Kosovo gained independence.     Declaring independence through political means is largely impertinent in regards to the legitimacy of the declaration, and it does not give a nation the right to declare independence. There are usually three circumstances that are considered when determining the legitimacy of a nation's declaration of independence. The problem with Kosovo is that it displays the circumstances of a nation that can legally declare independence, but taken from another point of view, it does not display those circumstances. That is why there is such a divide in the world over whether Kosovo's independence is legal or not. Then there is the dispute over the meaning of UN Resolution 1244 which reaffirms the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Serbia, but also authorizes the UN to facilitate a political process to determine Kosovo's future status. Then we have Russia's ascertation that Kosovo serves as a precedent for the resolution of other secessionist disputes. The US and most of Western Europe do not believe it sets a precedent. This is why the move by Russia is such a provocative move; it is forcing the international order to decide on whether the Kosovar resolution is precedent or not.

(And Vlad)

I know and that is why the Russian move is a scary one - they do not abide to international rule. I myself would be all in favor of an indepent Abchasia and S.Ossetia as long as all parties went through the motions of getting that independence as stipulated by UN policy. Like Kosovo has. Really, one resolution should never apply to every situation. Every independence, or merger should be considered individually. And taking up arms to gain independence should be nationally handled (by Georgia, as they did though wrongfully), other nations should still not interfere unless asked for and definatly not take up arms in the process.

On you're first paragraph, I'd like to know what circumstances and what conflicting views before I react.

Jackson50 said: Esmoreit said: StanGable said: I think it is the right time for the U.S. to go and kick some ass! We need to put European nations back in their place! Would that include western Europe, Stan? Please think or elaborate before you post standard-idiot rethoric. Also Rock-On: one of the reasons that Putin is so popular is that he's one of the few Russians that don't drink. I read an opinionated letter this morning in a newspaper where someone indeed pointed out that the acknowledgement of Abchazië and S.Ossetia is also a statement against the US/EU's acknowledgement of the indepence of Kosovo. The writer even said that it's hypocrite for the EU/US to berate Russia for doing the same thing now within Georgia. But, this is definatly not the same thing. When Kosovo demanded independence from Serbia, they did so through politics, backed by the UN and with no blood at all. Neither the US or EU stepped in with millitary force, and thus did not occupy large parts of Serbia to "aide" Kosovo. And again, there was no blood involved when Kosovo gained independence.     Declaring independence through political means is largely impertinent in regards to the legitimacy of the declaration, and it does not give a nation the right to declare independence. There are usually three circumstances that are considered when determining the legitimacy of a nation's declaration of independence. The problem with Kosovo is that it displays the circumstances of a nation that can legally declare independence, but taken from another point of view, it does not display those circumstances. That is why there is such a divide in the world over whether Kosovo's independence is legal or not. Then there is the dispute over the meaning of UN Resolution 1244 which reaffirms the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Serbia, but also authorizes the UN to facilitate a political process to determine Kosovo's future status. Then we have Russia's ascertation that Kosovo serves as a precedent for the resolution of other secessionist disputes. The US and most of Western Europe do not believe it sets a precedent. This is why the move by Russia is such a provocative move; it is forcing the international order to decide on whether the Kosovar resolution is precedent or not.

(And Vlad)

I know and that is why the Russian move is a scary one - they do not abide to international rule. I myself would be all in favor of an indepent Abchasia and S.Ossetia as long as all parties went through the motions of getting that independence as stipulated by UN policy. Like Kosovo has. Really, one resolution should never apply to every situation. Every independence, or merger should be considered individually. And taking up arms to gain independence should be nationally handled (by Georgia, as they did though wrongfully), other nations should still not interfere unless asked for and definatly not take up arms in the process.

On you're first paragraph, I'd like to know what circumstances and what conflicting views before I react.

^ I'm just trying to say that given the US's mistakes over in Iraq, especially when it comes to bombs hitting civilian houses, and intentionally bombing a few weddings (as in they were the target, the fact the ground troops were mistaken is another issue) the general population in the US should not act as saints and condemn what has happened in Georgia. That's all.

Also, who is supposed to ask for foreign intervention? Georgia's government or the ragtag bands from the regions that are trying to secede? As far as we know some random self-pronounced "leader" of some obscure group in one of the two regions asked Russia to get involved. Would that count? In general I'm against regions just plain seceding from their nations and so I was against Kosovo's independence, but since it happened then the two regions in Georgia should be allowed to separate as well.

@spdk1
I'm sorry but no matter which way you look at it, when compared to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Pearl Harbor was absolutely nothing. I keep to my analogy, Pearl Harbor would be like a punch to someone's face and Hiroshima and Nagasaki would be like shooting them back in the face, twice. And the fact that the US is the only country who has used Nukes still stands and is a very valid point in arguments.

Russia does not need the west ... Russia can exist without the west and the more the U.S. ... and all threats from NATO for isolation or something similar ... This is nonsense! we are not afraid! not scared! that NATO can we do? NOTHING! can only do blah blah ...
About independence republics ... but may I remind you about Kosovo? not tired of living double standards?
and in general the U.S. foreign policy and west who sits on a leash from the U.S. and eat bowls of the U.S. sometimes surprised very much ... That America did in Vietnam? Korea? Iraq? Afghanistan? Yugoslavia? they attacked the U.S.? these countries who then threatened? No? then on what basis do you invaded these countries? killed tens of thousands of civilians? so the west and America, close their mouths! and look at themselves ... better than you?
and yet ... europe, winter will soon ... Think about it ... will be very cold .. very ...

^ I'm taking Russia's side on this, but I also realize that what it's doing is on the level of what the US does, go to a country when they shouldn't be and fuck up everything, and Russia is as much at fault at that as is the US. Some people just tend to focus on the US a lot more. In fact throughout history there are dozens of nations, empires, whatever, that have done this, it's just a fact of life. Double standards, yes, but that doesn't excuse what you are doing and it doesn't make you any better than them.

I agree that boycotting Russia will be about as smart as the US's plan to boycott the EU back in the day when the EU didn't allow GM foods. Russia has its oil and it has what it needs to sustain itself. China doesn't give a shit about what the western countries and the US do so it will still deal with Russia, and all in all the western countries will probably end up suffering when their gas-dependent infrastructures find themselves without Russian oil in the market.

ziss said: Russia does not need the west ... Russia can exist without the west and the more the U.S. ... and all threats from NATO for isolation or something similar ... This is nonsense! we are not afraid! not scared! that NATO can we do? NOTHING! can only do blah blah ... About independence republics ... but may I remind you about Kosovo? not tired of living double standards? and in general the U.S. foreign policy and west who sits on a leash from the U.S. and eat bowls of the U.S. sometimes surprised very much ... That America did in Vietnam? Korea? Iraq? Afghanistan? Yugoslavia? they attacked the U.S.? these countries who then threatened? No? then on what basis do you invaded these countries? killed tens of thousands of civilians? so the west and America, close their mouths! and look at themselves ... better than you? and yet ... europe, winter will soon ... Think about it ... will be very cold .. very ...

 

calm down!  that's sort of unnecessary, the US isn't the only country that does this stuff.

 

I agree with all except afghanistan, 9/11 was a HUGE attack on US soil, and it messed up the worlds economy