@cOrd: The demand for "some games needing a story, while some don't", is for the time consuming games. It's hard to keep yourself motivated, when there's no particular reason to keep going. Without the motivation from the game itself, the games purpose loses its meaning. Of course, "story" doesn't limit itself into a CGI every ten minutes, where your Shadow of Colossus -example worked really well.

Games shouldn't try to have movie-like storylines, because they'll fail because movies will always have better stories than games if the game has a linear, movielike story.
Games should try to make a unique story, by being unlinear, by letting the player explore and form an opinion of his own.
Games like Bioshock do this through great atmosphere and ethical paths to choose from.
Games like Metroid Prime let the player discover the world and find out more about the ancient culture that once made the ruins you're walking through, while you're being told a normal cheap movielike story, in the form of space-pirates-attack-planet-save-planet.
Games like The Legend of Zelda have movielike stories, that generally suck when compared to actual movies(except for Majora's Mask, that game's story is awesome), but if you try to put together a timeline, try to unravel Hylian mythology, then you have one hell of a story. This is why The Legend of Zelda has so many fans who are as dedicated as, say, Star Wars or LOTR fanboys. That, and because the Zelda-games have such great gameplay.
Other games, like Mass Effect, have a story the player can form by himself almost completely, by the way they play the game, and by the choices they make.
Another cathegory are games that need some story because the gameplay core looks very boring at first, but is actually really good. The gameplay is compelling the player, but they think it's the story they're intersted in. Metal Gear Solid is a good example of this. The simple hide-and-seak gameplay is made more intense by making the player think the world will end if they get caught, or the player dies or something big like that.

Bottomline: games are interactive, so stories should be interactive too. It's a shame to waste this potential to movielike storytelling, because those stories are linear, and game stories don't have to be linear.

@mariozeldametroid: Your bottomline was exactly what i was thinking about.

OOT has a better story than MM, although because of the nature of the game, the story of MM is seemingly interactive.

By the way, where MGS fails, is the storytelling. Although, since MGS follows Snakes life, it gives a certain depht into the game, but how the story is told, it, well, sucks hard.

The best stories aren't the ones you're told, they're the ones you get to experience.

I think the big thing is living up to the selling point of the game. Certain genres demand excellent storytelling, while others don't. I've yet to see a fighting game with an inspired storyline and believable character development, but it really doesn't matter. RPGs on the other hand aren't worth touching if they don't have a compelling story to them. With adventure games...things get a bit dicey.

I think that Nintendo has gotten away with a lack of a story in some games for a little too long now, as everybody probably agrees that games like Zelda and Starfox could be elevated to a whole new level if they treated it with care and told a great story with the characters as is expected in most games. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Nintendo games, but some of them could use a little more effort in terms of a plot. Part of me always wanted to see Peach develop feelings for Luigi and the final battle not be against Bowser, but brother against brother. Then again, such a move could destroy the soul of the game, like what happened to sonic. It's a tough call, but if Nintendo really wants to tout their innovation, they should toss in some character development rather than rely on the tried-and-true formula.

Ha ha, debated - Yes an old pal of mine had this confused, he worked within the gaming industry somewhere in Canada for a while; we had a good laugh about this kind of thing too.

It's not very abstract at all... here: If I go to college for 2 years I can claim an associate degree for three~four years I can claim a B.A. and after five~six years a Master, past that would be of my vocation but at the point of Mastery I can teach in my field. I'm also reffered to as doctor.

In my short time I've seen enough snob proffesors who believe they may pronounce their knowledge in any field outside of the field they are studied, should this person as learned as they are speak professionally outside of their field they tend to be laughed at when speaking to professionals of that field. Though the laughter is just out of ear-shot it's still there...

In sales the laughter is expressed through word of mouth, but opinions differ, which I understand as a 'hardcore enigma', game designers are not movie directors and none of them are as verbose and imaginative the way JRR Tolken was. But to be fair JRR Tolken wouldn't be able to understand the meaning of 'play' the way Shigeru Miyamoto understands that word and even to a much greater extent explaining that word in an electronic interactive form.

Games aren't movies, or novels, they are games, they are a future age of toys.

Here's a rough sum, traditionally girls love dolls boys love GI JOE's in america anyway, look where we are today, Girls love Dogz and The Sims and guys love Halo and CoD4, whats the narrative there? ^_^

i dont get teh double standard, they hold games for it

look at teh pikmin review..

7.0 Lasting Appeal
Forcing players to finish the story mode in 10-12 hours hurts longevity, but the revamped Challenge mode will offer more gameplay time to Pikmin addicts. No multiplayer either.

they fault them for making the story so short...

or the latest mario

9.5 Presentation
An unnecessary side-tale contrasts with a traditional story. Otherwise, very slick menus and production values, not to mention WiiConnect24 support and a coop mode.

they fault it for trying to include a more fleshed out story


i dont think people give it a pass for story or lack there of but rather having something that makes it better then teh points i could knock off

maybe other games could do the same thing...lie GH 1-World Tour

no story but people love the game and give it great reviews b/c its so differnt

maybe you need to change your argument to ...Games can great game play give them a pass on story

@DeadNotSleeping: There's a completely different way of seeing it; games have had a pass long enough for focusing into the story.

I don't think "character developement" would be any kind of innovation and eventually it's compeletely irrelevant for the story. You want to see soap opera, and other people wants to see action.
When you see a movie or read a book, which is the main thing that keeps you reading or watching; the story itself or the storytelling? I'm guessing the latter. No matter how shitty the story itself is, good storytelling is what interests people, when as opposite, you could have the best story of the century but bad storytelling and everyone would still say it sucks.

So, how do the soap opera -like plots would be enchanged to gameplay and how would the gameplay benefit from it? The story works only as motive for the main character and as a motivation for the gamer to keep going.
Besides, now that you mentioned Zelda, it has similar elements in it, that you wanted to be implemented into Mario games.

@dib8rman: it's Tolkien.

@bdbdbd

Comparing games to books is a rather unfair comparison, especially with respect to the Mario franchise. In that franchise, there's virtually no storytelling whatsoever. Just a setting. The plot hasn't really changed since the NES days; Mario Galaxy is the same as 64 is the same as Mario World is the same as Mario 3. The games are fun and all, but come on. Sooner or later the plumber has to start wondering if she's just getting captured on purpose. I'm not looking for a soap opera plot, but some evidence that there's a continuation of the story or that the previous games even happened at all would be nice. Zelda's a bit better, but it's not like they can't do a little more with things. There's a lot of unexplored potential with some of their franchises.

Yes, bad storytelling can ruin a game from the get-go but good storytelling can make a great game even better. Metal Gear Solid probably wouldn't be remembered so fondly if each and every game was composed of nothing more than find and destroy Metal Gear. Personally, I think that Nintendo holds back on this because their games sell 6 million units pretty much every time and they don't want to risk alienating their existing fan base.

Their games are still really fun and that's what really matters, but there's still room for growth and it's rather disappointing that they're so hesitant to address this fact.

Some games don't need story. Some games are good but would be better with a story. Sometimes story is more important than gameplay. This gameplay is QTE's, simple puzzle solving or searching areas for key items. All these parts aren't interesting, however you play them because you want the story to advance.