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which fighting game takes the most skill?

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It is obviously either (VF, TEKKEN, SC) either one.
You SMBers talk about what you can do in approach....
any one of those games you have to think about hit speeds, feinting, reversals, leads, low or high blocks/reversals, how known a combo might be (to protect against blocks, parry, counters), how known an opener is, using unknown characters, grabs, side-steps, grab combos, grab openers, stuns, recovery times vs pokes and others, gambling strikes (sacrificing a large recovery time for a possible setup, know most everyone's combos and counters and block paths.
Every character can beat another character of equal skill in these games.
in ssb and others, some characters are simply "low tier"
you guys brag about who's high tier and whatnot. A great fighting game has no tiers.
Greatness is not shooting zipping around the field. Reflexes are not what makes a good fighting game. Fighting games are all about the mental game.
Nothing better than sacrificing your health to hurt someone in a crazy complex move, that has such a short reach, only the great ones can use it correctly.
(yoshimitsu's harikiri)



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There are four people
2 are in an arena like zone running around madly
One is wearing ten layers of kevlar/no helmet, the other one; no kevlar, no helmet.
2 are on a rooftop with guns.
these 2 on the roof represent two kinds of games.
serious games( like tekken, vf, sc) have sniper rifles
fun games (SSB, SSBM) have machine guns
both types require skill. One just requires more skill.
the arena guys are difficulties
kevlar guy is hard, other guy is easy
An SSBer has a tougher time killing the hard one, but can still get lucky with a headshot.
The tekken player is going to need to hit a headshot to beat "hard", luck just doesn't have any effect here.

(just as well, he will need skill to even beat the non-kevlar player, because the game isn't just about moves, it's about timing, countering, and the mental game, tricking the opponent)



The only flaw in your arguments is that 90% of the stuff you mentioned IS in Brawl. Sorry, but the only possible reason I can see for you not recognizing this is that is either you've never played Brawl, you're stuck on whatever you've gotten from watching/playing Melee, or you simply don't have the skill necessary to recognize the same techniques being used in the game. They may be executed differently, but they're still there.

Quite frankly, I've never given credit to the idea of teirs in Brawl. In Melee, sure, but in Brawl, character balance has been improved drastically, so that complaint just doesn't work. Some characters have an individual advantage against other characters, they'll also have weaknesses against other characters.

as for your comment "Every character can beat another character of equal skill in these games" how does that even work?

If every character cae beat another character of equal skill, that would mean that character A, being equally skilled to character B, can beat him, but that also has the reverse of character B, having equal skill to character A, will beat him. So it's always a tie? Sorry, but no, I'm not buying this. The only way you can have that perfect of character balance between as many characters as found in Brawl is if you just have a bunch of cookie cutter characters that don't really have any signifigant differences.

Brawl has personality and incredibly different characters with widely varying attacks, yet still manages to retain a dynamic balance. Some characters are stronger against other characters, but they will also be weaker against other characters. this happens in real life as well, where one fighting style may be effective agaisnt another style, but you will rarely find any single style that has a clear advantage over every other style. having a certain degree of balance is neccesary, but making it so every single character vs character battle is always balanced is actually a BAD thing.



"any one of those games you have to think about hit speeds"

This happens too, it's the difference between a regular attack and a smash attack. Smash attacks are more powerful and are the most likely to knock your opponent off teh stage, but also are the most telegraphed and easy to dodge.

"feinting"

This is a primary strategy in Brawl, where you act like you're going to attempt one type of attack, but you don't use the attack and dodge the counter attack your opponent throws out so you can attack freely. Quite frankly, I've never seen a feint used, or even a method by which a real feint CAN be used, in ANY of the fighting games you've mentioned besides brawl and melee.

"reversals"

Doesn't get focused on that much, but it's quite common to land a hit that knocks your opponent away, but they stop flinching before you can get back in for another attack and they manage to attack you. Then of course, there are also those few characters that have specific counter moves, like Mario's cape, Peach's toad, Marth, Ike's and Lucario's Counter, Fox, Falco and Wolf's reflector, Pit's Shield, and Lucas and Ness's energy absorbtion ball.

"leads"

Not sure exactly what you're referring to here, not a matter of i don't know the strategy, I just forget which specific strategy this one is referring to

"low or high blocks/reversals"

This doesn't get used as much in Brawl, but it does still take place. I main as Kirby, and I can't count the number of times that I've just simply ducked under attacks rather than attempting to dodge or block them. A specific example is when trying to deal with pit characters who spam their arrows, pit can curve his arrows lower and higher, so I have to alternate between jumping and ducking in order to avoid the shots.

"how known a combo might be (to protect against blocks, parry, counters)"

Brawl doesn't have "combos" persay, but that's basically gotten replaced with juggling, as I've mentioned earlier. you knock your opponent into a position that you can follow up with another attack before they recover from the first blow. This often means knocking them into the air ala Dragonball Z style. DBZ makes it look easy.

"how known an opener is"

Uhuh, if someone starts off in Brawl using a particular type of move, that can get predicted and they wind up trailing in damage within the firs t3 seconds, putting them at a disadvantage in order to make up the difference through the entire rest of the match

"using unknown characters"

This plays a CONSTANT part of brawl, there are freaking 35 characters in Brawl, and many get dismissed due to people's misconceptions abotu "low teirs" and then when someone with actual skill decides to pick up those characters, people get their butts handed to them, because they don't understand the fighting style at all. VF I found a list of 20 characters, for SC I found a list of 26, but that was using the entire series, Tekken I found a list of about 36 characters, so that's the only game I can see you comparing to Brawl on that level.

"grabs"

Dur, grabs are pertty much the only way to deal with a character that is counter attack heavy. Also very useful for dealing with blocks.

"side-steps"

We just call that dodging, but remember, there are actually two different types of dodging, both rolling, which actually moves you in a direction and straight down dodge, which only has you sidestep for an instant. rolling is usually better, but sometimes the roll can be predicted and it takes time away from your ability to retaliate with an attack of your own. Staight down dodging is more difficult to time, but leaves you much mroe time to attack properly afterward.

"grab combos, grab openers"

used in brawl quite frequently, some people even get seriouslyy pissed since it's supposedly possible to chain grab to incredibly high hit percentage.

"stuns"

you get heavily stunned if your shield breaks, but there's also basic flinches that come from any attack that are the fundamental building blocks of juggling

"recovery times vs pokes and others"

might not be getting exactly what you're talking about, but this seems to just go back to the difference between light fast attacks and heavy slower attacks. using a small attack is often very useful for disrupting a stronger attack yoru opponent is trying to use.

"gambling strikes (sacrificing a large recovery time for a possible setup)"

I've used these a lot as Kirby, since he has a shorter reach, there are a number of tiems I end up taking damage just to be able to land a blow properly, and I have to do that a few times until I can create a proper opening to land solid hits to actually deal out real damage.

"now most everyone's combos and counters and block paths"

brawl doesn't have teh combos, but we have dodge paths to predict, if you attack at teh proper time, it's possible to guide your following attack so it continues right into where they would be rolling to and you end up hitting them anyway.

 

So basically, all the crap you just tossed out as Brawl NOT having? It does. You just apparently don't recognize it as being there because you're so hung up on the other stuff. The skills and strategies I mentioned in my post above yours I KNOW aren't in other games because the sheer game mechanics to support them are only present in Smash Bros. You don't have anything but a flat stage in other fighting games, you don't have variable points of KO, you don't have 4 player or 3 player brawls (which also add in the strategy of making and breaking alliances, a strategy point I never touched on in my post above yours), and you don't have items or team matches or multiple stock.

nearly every point you attempted to make fell completely flat.

 

now, I've got a question for anybody who actually decides to post further in this. Have any of you people been in an actual FIGHT? I mean, flat out, no ring, no ref, no points, FIGHT?



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joint winners here.... Virtua fighter and Soul calibur

sorry but the big 10 hit combos are too easy to pull off on tekken

if you get a 7, 8, 9 or 10 hit combo on virtua fighter you EARNED it through REAL skill

Killer instinct was another game that involved skill, getting those ultra combos with some characters was tough as nails



Three gaming companies i will respect forever............. SEGA, Capcom, Nintendo.

My gaming HERO= Yu Suzuki (The father of Shenmue, Virtua fighter, he's also an arcade/3D gaming PIONEER)

Proud member of the Sonic Support Squad. (not that he needs it anymore after Unleashed, Generations & All-Stars Racing)

Street fighter and tekken.



 

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Super Smash Bros.



Grey Acumen said:

<snip>

now, I've got a question for anybody who actually decides to post further in this. Have any of you people been in an actual FIGHT? I mean, flat out, no ring, no ref, no points, FIGHT?

*pushes Grey Acumen off the stage while he's posting*

I win!

 



Words Of Wisdom said:

Grey Acumen said:

 

now, I've got a question for anybody who actually decides to post further in this. Have any of you people been in an actual FIGHT? I mean, flat out, no ring, no ref, no points, FIGHT?

*pushes Grey Acumen off the stage while he's posting*

I win!

 

you activated my trap card!

 



Seppukuties is like LBP Lite, on crack. Play it already!

Currently wrapped up in: Half Life, Portal, and User Created Source Mods
Games I want: (Wii)Mario Kart, Okami, Bully, Conduit,  No More Heroes 2 (GC) Eternal Darkness, Killer7, (PS2) Ico, God of War1&2, Legacy of Kain: SR2&Defiance


My Prediction: Wii will be achieve 48% market share by the end of 2008, and will achieve 50% by the end of june of 09. Prediction Failed.

<- Click to see more of her

 

@grey, listen i never said that those things weren't in brawl.
I'm saying that the importance of those things isn't there.

look, all the stuff is there, but when you get down to it. I can really only expect a range of 2-3 moves in any situation in brawl.
I know, I've played extensively, had all three games. (in fact i think brawl is the least balanced. so the opposite of what you think) And I've been amazing at them games for as long as i've had them. In fact I don't recall losing to anyone in any ssb games.

The thing about fighting games (and here is where your actual fight question comes into play), is that the mental game is so important.
Now whether or not you think an ssb game is mentally difficult, that's your opinion; but honestly it's not.
You cannot gamble in an ssb game. There is always 1 best move in any situation. It's predictable.
Sure you can predict 10 hit combos and stuff like that. But then again, if you think a fighting game is played, then maybe you should stick to Brawling instead.

Note: Once i figured out how to play as yoshimitsu, most other fighting games couldn't compare, except voldo from sc.
You just can't tease, hit hard, embarass (with the most difficult to pull off moves in either game) like you can in those two games. And trust me, controlling your opponents emotions are the key to winning in real fights as well.
ssb isn't a fighter, it's a fun game, a great game with fighting elements. It's a blast to play and a credit to every console it has been on.

TO REITERATE: yes ssb has those elements of fighting in it. Only each one of them together is a bag of skittles compared to the 20-course meals of a fighter like sc,tekken, and vf.

TO TRANSLATE: when i said something about equal ability for characters, i mean: a character that hits for 1/5th of the damage of everyone else, with the same , or even sometimes slower speed, can still drop a hard fisted bolt of lightning character; given that the person playing him has put at least as much experience into learning the character as the other guy has for his character.



I have to go with smash bros (melee in particular) not because of anything other than the extremely vast amount of character styles. What it means is more people can find the character that suites them and thus the best rise to the top.

for example: aniki and chudat. they took two mid tiers link (link is mid tier due to aniki btw) and ice climbers and became top players. their skill is what got them their, not their character. they happened to be able to find characters that suited their style and could utilize their skill the best.

and if anyone ever tried a wave shine to shine spike they would know the insane amount of possible skill that can be used.



my pillars of gaming: kh, naughty dog, insomniac, ssb, gow, ff

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