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ssj12 said:
Bodhesatva said:
ssj12 said:
Bodhesatva said:
I'm saying the Wii is destroying the consept of immersive gameplay

It can't be destroying it, can it? I mean, it's as immersive as it was last generation, at least. Saying that the Wii is as immersive as the PS2 doesn't make it "destroy immersive gameplay," although you could say it's not progressing it.

And even that comment, I would argue. Look at the hub bub over Manhunt 2: the Wii version was much more aggressively attacked precisely because it was too immersive.

i disagree video games are a form of art. A game being to immersive is like saying the monalisa is an incomplete painting. Censorship in this world has just become to stupid and strict on the media but doesnt restrict people like the idiots at the westboro church from "thanking god for dead soldiers" and protesting soldier's funerals. Oh, there is actually a story in ManHunt 2.

As for your pro gamer friends, I'm a former pro in Unreal Tournament 2004, for PC games we care about fast framerates with no lag, we will turn our games to low graphical settings and 800 by 600 resolution. For consoles we should have to suffer from lag, and framerate issues so graphics should be able to free to create wonderful worlds displaying each developer's own art styles.


Several problems:

1) If you want to make art, you will make it on the PC. Why compromise your art and make games on the inferior PS3 console?

2) I sincerely hope games become an art form. The problem is it isnt there yet. The popular games today are incredibly violent, shallow, and aimed almost entirely at 15-25 year old males. God of War is a great example, as is Gears of War. In fact, any game where you go out and kill hundreds if not thousands of bad guys, beat "bosses" and ultimately "win" are pretty much not art. They're young male fantasies, like Spider Man or Dragon Ball Z -- shallow action stuff intended to be "cool."

If this were a serious art form, educated adults would be playing these games, and by and large, they're not. The games you love are played mostly by teenagers and 23 year olds. Adults ARE playing the Wii, however, which basically suggests you have it backwards.

For 15 years, video games have made almost no progress in capturing the adult, educated market market. Now, with the Wii, they are. What this suggests is that the Wii has a chance to be an art form, and it's the Playstation brand (and Gamecube, and Xbox, and N64, and any other brand that failed to capture the adult market) that is failing to be art.

Your Mona Lisa example is a great one, because it almost entirely annihilates your position. How many teenage boys do you know that are profoundly interested in Renaissance-era art? Classical painting of any kind? I've known maybe one or two. It's a serious art form, and it's almost entirely dominated by well educated adults. By contrast, the top games on the PS and 360 (Metal Gear, Gears of War, God of War, Killzone) are almost entirely avoided by adults, and largely played by teenagers, especially male ones. This suggests that what you call "art" isn't really art at all -- it's just a young male fantasy.

 


for one. I love Dragon Ball Z and cant wait till Bandai gets the license for the franchise like its supposed to in 2008 so theres a DBZ game on the PS3 =]

How can you say it isnt art? Every character is sculpted then re-sculpted into a program then slowly modeled into a full moving creature. Textures are created in photoshop. The music for the game is written and specifically tuned to that part of the game.

Honestly I really dont understand why adults avoid games like God of War or Final Fantasy in which have story lines that are enjoyable to follow through with and see what happens. Games like Wii Play are basically like board games, no real depth to it. It can be fun to play but after a while you realize nothing else will happen. Oh wait you can unlock a diamond ball. After that theres really nothing to do. The main reason why the Wii is so popular is because like DDR you are forced to move your body and lose wait and unfortunately theres so many people who are to lazy to just eat less and go to a gym think its the greatest diet thing there is and the media basically made it so thats what most people think the greatest part of it is. My friend's grandma bought herself a Wii, why? just for Wii Sports. Why? because it lets her work out. Does she plan on buying any more games? no, not even Wii Play. How many more people around the world are there that has the same mindset? who knows, probably quite a bit since for how many consoles have been sold software sales are lower then they should be.

Oh, I'm not saying you can't like these things, I'm just saying they're not great art. It's entertainment. For example, Dragon Ball Z is GREAT entertainment -- it's just not art, in my book.

But that's just my definition, and I think we're talking about different things: I'm talking about a cerebral experience, you're just talking about things that are pretty, or realistic. By that definition, obviously the PS3 is superior. Some of the games you're talking about are very well drawn, I wouldn't argue that at all.

But I'm talking about high art: great literature, great film, Renessaince painting (which you used as an example) and so forth. These are things with either complex plot, adult dialogue, or sophisticated intellectual theme and meaning. THAT is what I want, and what has always lacked in video games. 

The reason why God of War and Final Fantasy are avoided by adults is because their plots are perceived as silly and/or shallow. I mean, honestly -- it's a guy with giant blades that goes around and kills everything he sees.

If you don't feel the same way, that's fine! Again, I'm not suggesting that you should feel the same way I do. I'm GUESSING I'm older than you -- I'm 25 -- and I can say that I probably had the exact same preferences you do now when I was 19 or 20 (my favorite game, by far, was Goldeneye at that time). What I can say is I thought God of War type stuff was "deep" back then... and now I definitely do not. 

Again, not saying you have to like what I do, SSJ. I'm just giving my personal preferences. I used to like Pokemon-style games a lot, and now I feel they don't target me either. I'm also not saying that graphics are COMPLETELY unimportant; if I could have a system that attracted adults AND had the graphics of a PS3, I'd totally be there, but there isn't one (yet), and I pick adult-oriented games over great graphics. Maybe the PS4 will be more ready for adult gaming -- and I think it will be, because Sony is smart and they know how to adapt. 



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So the Sony fanboys dont kill themselfs "This is why the PS3 needs to win this gen"




Sweet and ready to roll!

Lingyis said:

Artform argument: this is plain ridiculous. Just coz it's "art" doesn't mean all the adults like them. If "art" is a big deal, artists won't be struggling so much.

Only the trained few will appreciate "art". It is an acquired taste; like wine and the likes. If a commoner can pick up and understand art in a snap, it's not art. Some say art need the general appeal; sure, but that's one-dimensional. In short, art doesn't sell.

Art needs depth. Beautiful graphics is not depth. It's merely the media, and only skin deep. You can be wowed and amazed, but it's not art. Art needs to offer new insights.

Do I appreciate art? Sure, I've been trained in classical music for 20 years now. But ironically, it's very exhausting for me to listen to classical music. I immediately go in analysis mode, and it's not always enjoyable. It's nice once in a while to enjoy the experience, but I can't take too much of it.

Similarly, I can't take "real" art in large quantities.

Games don't need to become artforms. They just need to be games. A little bit a depth would be nice, and once in a while an artsy game would be nice for the diversity. Like "Sadness", I imagine it's an artsy game, although I heard it's also got substantial violence. Oh well.

Ultimately, adults are kids. We just want to have fun. Otherwise we'd all be going to museums instead of bars. But our notion of fun is more qualified, less mindless, and a tad bit more sophisticated.

Video games won't take over adults' lives. It's just a small part of it.

Just like the arts.

 

==================================

Now here's the practical issue. The chances of a profit-seeking video game publisher producing art-like games is low; andwhen they do so, you can sure as hell bet it won't be a $10 million endeavor. It will by necessity have a small budget. There is no way complicated architecture like PS3 is gonna get the nod for developing this kind of game. It will be on the least expensive platform, i.e. the PC, unless there's an immersive experience that the PC cannot offer, which leaves us the Wii with its controls. Obviously, the better the tools an artist has at his disposal the better, but graphics--the tool--is secondary--if an artist can't work around that, he's more of an engineer.


see im not going to argue because I agree with you on your points on art.

The way I see things though, the PS3 has the power to give depth and beauty to it's games. Its up to the developer to create that.

The Wii I dont see being able to balance graphics and gameplay as well as the PS3 can. The 360 can do it too but the PS3 is a bit stronger and does have motion sensing in it's controller too which allows similar to what the Wii offers. In some situations the SixAxis will probably be better for some gameplay styles then then Wii Mote as the WiiMote will be better for others.

Another key thing is storage space. Blu-Ray will play a serious factor in this generation as will the HDD. The HDD is standard in the PS3 which is good. Any doubters for storage space.. well.. my Unreal Tournament 2004 folder is up to 23GB of data from custom maps and mods. Basic install was 7GB. Final Fantasy 11 was more.. i think 9GB without updates.

Also currently the PS3 is actually stronger then most PCs on the market.. the 2900XTX wont top the graphical abilities of the RSX+Cell. The 8900GTX probably will though.

 

@Bodhesatva - you are older then me, im 19.

@twesterm - I got pulled into Resistance, and Motorstorm. I got the rush of feeling like I was Natham Hale or racing in my truck/rail buggy. Motorstorm actually made me want to buy a rail buggy. Which I plan to really soon =]

 

 

 

 



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ssj12 said:

The way I see things though, the PS3 has the power to give depth and beauty to it's games. Its up to the developer to create that.

Also currently the PS3 is actually stronger then most PCs on the market.. the 2900XTX wont top the graphical abilities of the RSX+Cell. The 8900GTX probably will though.

@twesterm - I got pulled into Resistance, and Motorstorm. I got the rush of feeling like I was Natham Hale or racing in my truck/rail buggy. Motorstorm actually made me want to buy a rail buggy. Which I plan to really soon =]


1. It is up to the developer on ANY console to create depth and beauty in their games. It has little to do with the actual console.

2. Yeah the PS3 is stronger than some PCs on the market, but you buy two 8900GT videocards and use SLI to connect them both to the same PC, that blows away any PS3 graphics.

3. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and just say that motorstorm was the worst game i've ever played. Sorry.



let's put this ridiculous argument to rest once and for all. The Wii will not destroy gaming for anyone.

If you like your cinematic huge 70GB graphics galore games then fine, they will still be made no matter how successful Wii Play like minigames are. This is the way capitalism works. If there is a market for something then it will be created. Just because more people buy more of one product than another it doesn't make the other less profitable. Introducing gaming to new people does not make the size of the "hardcore" segment any smaller. Any reduction in profits from people targeting the "hardcore" segment are the faults of those targeting that segment and none other.

So shut up already, your games will not go away, the PS3 doesn't need to "Win". Just enjoy your PS3 and accept the fact that it will never reach the sales of the Wii. Don't worry, you will still get the games you like so long as you go out and buy them.



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ssj12 said:
Lingyis said:

Artform argument: this is plain ridiculous. Just coz it's "art" doesn't mean all the adults like them. If "art" is a big deal, artists won't be struggling so much.

Only the trained few will appreciate "art". It is an acquired taste; like wine and the likes. If a commoner can pick up and understand art in a snap, it's not art. Some say art need the general appeal; sure, but that's one-dimensional. In short, art doesn't sell.

Art needs depth. Beautiful graphics is not depth. It's merely the media, and only skin deep. You can be wowed and amazed, but it's not art. Art needs to offer new insights.

Do I appreciate art? Sure, I've been trained in classical music for 20 years now. But ironically, it's very exhausting for me to listen to classical music. I immediately go in analysis mode, and it's not always enjoyable. It's nice once in a while to enjoy the experience, but I can't take too much of it.

Similarly, I can't take "real" art in large quantities.

Games don't need to become artforms. They just need to be games. A little bit a depth would be nice, and once in a while an artsy game would be nice for the diversity. Like "Sadness", I imagine it's an artsy game, although I heard it's also got substantial violence. Oh well.

Ultimately, adults are kids. We just want to have fun. Otherwise we'd all be going to museums instead of bars. But our notion of fun is more qualified, less mindless, and a tad bit more sophisticated.

Video games won't take over adults' lives. It's just a small part of it.

Just like the arts.

 

==================================

Now here's the practical issue. The chances of a profit-seeking video game publisher producing art-like games is low; andwhen they do so, you can sure as hell bet it won't be a $10 million endeavor. It will by necessity have a small budget. There is no way complicated architecture like PS3 is gonna get the nod for developing this kind of game. It will be on the least expensive platform, i.e. the PC, unless there's an immersive experience that the PC cannot offer, which leaves us the Wii with its controls. Obviously, the better the tools an artist has at his disposal the better, but graphics--the tool--is secondary--if an artist can't work around that, he's more of an engineer.


see im not going to argue because I agree with you on your points on art.

The way I see things though, the PS3 has the power to give depth and beauty to it's games. Its up to the developer to create that.

The Wii I dont see being able to balance graphics and gameplay as well as the PS3 can. The 360 can do it too but the PS3 is a bit stronger and does have motion sensing in it's controller too which allows similar to what the Wii offers. In some situations the SixAxis will probably be better for some gameplay styles then then Wii Mote as the WiiMote will be better for others.

Another key thing is storage space. Blu-Ray will play a serious factor in this generation as will the HDD. The HDD is standard in the PS3 which is good. Any doubters for storage space.. well.. my Unreal Tournament 2004 folder is up to 23GB of data from custom maps and mods. Basic install was 7GB. Final Fantasy 11 was more.. i think 9GB without updates.

Also currently the PS3 is actually stronger then most PCs on the market.. the 2900XTX wont top the graphical abilities of the RSX+Cell. The 8900GTX probably will though.

 

@Bodhesatva - you are older then me, im 19.

@twesterm - I got pulled into Resistance, and Motorstorm. I got the rush of feeling like I was Natham Hale or racing in my truck/rail buggy. Motorstorm actually made me want to buy a rail buggy. Which I plan to really soon =]

 

 

 

 


I think we're just going to have to leave this, because our definition of art is different. I'm thinking of high art, and I'm not sure that's your goal here. By your definition, the system that is the most technically powerful will ALWAYS be the best, but again, I really don't see why this wouldn't be high end PCs, and it certainly means the PS2 was inferior last generation. I doubt you feel the PS2 was the worst console, based on your previous posts.

There are already several standard model PCs that are more powerful than the PS3, thousands of customized models, and these numbers will only grow over time (within a year, very few new computer models will be less powerful than the PS3). If this is the definition of art, then the PS3 fails for the same reason the Wii does -- although it certainly fails less than the Wii in this department :p

Again, my personal goal -- and personal view of art -- is to find more complex stories and themes and provide intellectually stimulating gameplay. My person belief is that we are far away from being a mature art form in this department, but I believe the progress needs to go something like this:

Step 1) Stop making so many games about a super human who mows down hundreds of aliens/zombies/Nazis

Cooking Mama, the Sims, Brain Age and others are the first step in this direction, for me. Again, just my perspective. Step two will be better, more mature dialoge and social interactions, but we really need to keep moving towards step 1 first :p



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By the way things are going,Wii is going to quadruple PS3 sales.

There is no way PS3 will come on top.PS3 has just scratched the surface,but so has The Wii.



Sweet and ready to roll!

I was going to flame the seven colours of earwax out of you when I read your initial post, but I'm glad people with more restraint got here first. The entire thread is much prettier than it would've been if it was posted while I was awake. ^^

A straight block against a curved punch, and a curved block against a straight punch, as the proverbial they are in the habit of saying.



Bodhesatva said:
ssj12 said:
Bodhesatva said:
I'm saying the Wii is destroying the consept of immersive gameplay

It can't be destroying it, can it? I mean, it's as immersive as it was last generation, at least. Saying that the Wii is as immersive as the PS2 doesn't make it "destroy immersive gameplay," although you could say it's not progressing it.

And even that comment, I would argue. Look at the hub bub over Manhunt 2: the Wii version was much more aggressively attacked precisely because it was too immersive.

i disagree video games are a form of art. A game being to immersive is like saying the monalisa is an incomplete painting. Censorship in this world has just become to stupid and strict on the media but doesnt restrict people like the idiots at the westboro church from "thanking god for dead soldiers" and protesting soldier's funerals. Oh, there is actually a story in ManHunt 2.

As for your pro gamer friends, I'm a former pro in Unreal Tournament 2004, for PC games we care about fast framerates with no lag, we will turn our games to low graphical settings and 800 by 600 resolution. For consoles we should have to suffer from lag, and framerate issues so graphics should be able to free to create wonderful worlds displaying each developer's own art styles.


Several problems:

1) If you want to make art, you will make it on the PC. Why compromise your art and make games on the inferior PS3 console?

2) I sincerely hope games become an art form. The problem is it isnt there yet. The popular games today are incredibly violent, shallow, and aimed almost entirely at 15-25 year old males. God of War is a great example, as is Gears of War. In fact, any game where you go out and kill hundreds if not thousands of bad guys, beat "bosses" and ultimately "win" are pretty much not art. They're young male fantasies, like Spider Man or Dragon Ball Z -- shallow action stuff intended to be "cool."

If this were a serious art form, educated adults would be playing these games, and by and large, they're not. The games you love are played mostly by teenagers and 23 year olds. Adults ARE playing the Wii, however, which basically suggests you have it backwards.

For 15 years, video games have made almost no progress in capturing the educated adult market. Now, with the Wii, they are. What this suggests is that the Wii has a chance to be an art form, and it's the Playstation brand (and Gamecube, and Xbox, and N64, and any other brand that failed to capture the adult market) that is failing to be art.

Your Mona Lisa example is a great one, because it almost entirely annihilates your position. How many teenage boys do you know that are profoundly interested in Renaissance-era art? Classical painting of any kind? I've known maybe one or two. It's a serious art form, and it's almost entirely dominated by well educated adults. As are all the other serious art forms I can think of -- art house movies, canonized plays such as those of Shakespeare, canonized novels such as The Great Gatsby. These are things adults enjoy, because high art is complicated and, generally, not very fun, as the goal is to engage the mind.

By contrast, the top games on the PS and 360 (Metal Gear, Gears of War, God of War, Killzone) are almost entirely avoided by adults, and largely played by teenagers, especially male ones. This suggests that what you call "art" isn't really art at all -- it's just a young male fantasy.

 


 im totally disagreeing with ssj12, but wat your saying isnt quite true either. Gears of War for example is just like counter-strike played very much by adults, multiplayer is very tacticall and a lot of younger gamers want something easier. and games are already an art-form, twilight princess is so beautifully crafted no other art can compare to it (i mean its got paintings and statues in the game, which are amazing). same thing for Gears, which I belief you never played. graphics do immerse you into the game, but the graphics of the wii arent that far away from 360 graphics, sure its alot considering there both in the same gen, but the xbox isnt far away from the 360 either. nes and the genesis diver much and they still got immersive games (yes even now). but graphics is just a little piece of the puzzle (eh, yes im not english but you should know what i mean). i think the wii is way more immersive than the 360, when playing wii tennis i really got the feeling im on the tennis court (the mii version :P). virtua tennis isnt immersive at all compared to wii sports tennis. 



SleepWaking said:
Bodhesatva said:
ssj12 said:
Bodhesatva said:
I'm saying the Wii is destroying the consept of immersive gameplay

It can't be destroying it, can it? I mean, it's as immersive as it was last generation, at least. Saying that the Wii is as immersive as the PS2 doesn't make it "destroy immersive gameplay," although you could say it's not progressing it.

And even that comment, I would argue. Look at the hub bub over Manhunt 2: the Wii version was much more aggressively attacked precisely because it was too immersive.

i disagree video games are a form of art. A game being to immersive is like saying the monalisa is an incomplete painting. Censorship in this world has just become to stupid and strict on the media but doesnt restrict people like the idiots at the westboro church from "thanking god for dead soldiers" and protesting soldier's funerals. Oh, there is actually a story in ManHunt 2.

As for your pro gamer friends, I'm a former pro in Unreal Tournament 2004, for PC games we care about fast framerates with no lag, we will turn our games to low graphical settings and 800 by 600 resolution. For consoles we should have to suffer from lag, and framerate issues so graphics should be able to free to create wonderful worlds displaying each developer's own art styles.


Several problems:

1) If you want to make art, you will make it on the PC. Why compromise your art and make games on the inferior PS3 console?

2) I sincerely hope games become an art form. The problem is it isnt there yet. The popular games today are incredibly violent, shallow, and aimed almost entirely at 15-25 year old males. God of War is a great example, as is Gears of War. In fact, any game where you go out and kill hundreds if not thousands of bad guys, beat "bosses" and ultimately "win" are pretty much not art. They're young male fantasies, like Spider Man or Dragon Ball Z -- shallow action stuff intended to be "cool."

If this were a serious art form, educated adults would be playing these games, and by and large, they're not. The games you love are played mostly by teenagers and 23 year olds. Adults ARE playing the Wii, however, which basically suggests you have it backwards.

For 15 years, video games have made almost no progress in capturing the educated adult market. Now, with the Wii, they are. What this suggests is that the Wii has a chance to be an art form, and it's the Playstation brand (and Gamecube, and Xbox, and N64, and any other brand that failed to capture the adult market) that is failing to be art.

Your Mona Lisa example is a great one, because it almost entirely annihilates your position. How many teenage boys do you know that are profoundly interested in Renaissance-era art? Classical painting of any kind? I've known maybe one or two. It's a serious art form, and it's almost entirely dominated by well educated adults. As are all the other serious art forms I can think of -- art house movies, canonized plays such as those of Shakespeare, canonized novels such as The Great Gatsby. These are things adults enjoy, because high art is complicated and, generally, not very fun, as the goal is to engage the mind.

By contrast, the top games on the PS and 360 (Metal Gear, Gears of War, God of War, Killzone) are almost entirely avoided by adults, and largely played by teenagers, especially male ones. This suggests that what you call "art" isn't really art at all -- it's just a young male fantasy.

 


im totally disagreeing with ssj12, but wat your saying isnt quite true either. Gears of War for example is just like counter-strike played very much by adults, multiplayer is very tacticall and a lot of younger gamers want something easier. and games are already an art-form, twilight princess is so beautifully crafted no other art can compare to it (i mean its got paintings and statues in the game, which are amazing). same thing for Gears, which I belief you never played. graphics do immerse you into the game, but the graphics of the wii arent that far away from 360 graphics, sure its alot considering there both in the same gen, but the xbox isnt far away from the 360 either. nes and the genesis diver much and they still got immersive games (yes even now). but graphics is just a little piece of the puzzle (eh, yes im not english but you should know what i mean). i think the wii is way more immersive than the 360, when playing wii tennis i really got the feeling im on the tennis court (the mii version :P). virtua tennis isnt immersive at all compared to wii sports tennis.


Okay, Counter Strike happens to be a world I live in, and I can promise you, there are almost no professional CS players over the age of 30. In fact, I can think of only one I've ever met. And I have played Gears of War, and God of War 1 (not 2), but never beaten any of them. Weren't my cup o tea, as I said :p

Generally, I agree, though, that Graphics aren't meaningless, they're just one piece of the artistic puzzle.  



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