MikeB said: @ LordTheNightKnight We are not discussing whether a game will look better as the developers catch on to the system. ANY system can do that Games use more of the system resources in course of time, be that memory, storage, processing power, etc. That's the point. Developers will make storage related sacrifices, they will try to fit content on single layer DVDs as the reading speed significantly degrades with dual layer discs, they will try to keep everything on one disc, so possible extras like 7.1 surround audio will be left out, content won't make it into the final retail version and rather be offered as downloadable content, etc. GTA IV will probably have become an even better game if the XBox 360 had more storage and a default harddrive for caching, and of course this hurts the PS3 version as well, as it's a multi-platform game and sacrifices will be made based on the system offering the lowest specs, if it had to be on the Wii as well, the game probably wouldn't turn out to be much more technically impressive than a PS2 game

  1. No, use of resources OTHER than storage is not the point of this thread, which is why those comments are irrelevant.

 2. Decreasing speed on the 360 is still faster than the PS3's, so that doesn't prove the size will be a problem.

 3. Leaving out content that has a small market penetration, such as Dolby 7.1, doesn't prove DVD9 will hurt the 360. And don't try any lines about it mattering in a few years. By that time there will be the 8th gen, and larger formats will be feasible for all the game systems.

 4. Even PS3 games have downloadable content, because those take time and money to make, even if they can all fit on one disc.

 5. The GTAIV developers expicitly stated the PS3 has its own development problems. Just because they didn't say what they were (at least in the preview released of the interview) doesn't mean they aren't there.

MikeB said: To quote myself: "It will probably take some time before developers manage to get the most out of this platform, as has for example also been the case with the classic Amiga chipsets. The early Amiga games don't compare well to the complex graphics used by for instance game like Elfmania or Lion Heart." Why I used Elfmania as an example: http://youtube.com/watch?v=wBBiM9I80Mw (Be amazed by the power of hardware from the 80s!) If only Amiga 500 games looked like this at launch! But sadly it took lots of time for Amiga games to show how much more powerful the Amiga was as a gaming platform in comparison to other platform of its time, like for example the NES... The guys posting here want to see results NOW! I am saying wait for christmas 2007 for some milestones! Is that really too long?

IT's CHUCK LIDDEL!!!!!!

if all they are going to cut out is things like dolby digital 7.1, i think 98% of xbox users will gladly take the extra 200$. Seriously, just because you can not have virtually everything possible fit on the DVD doesn't mean they should switch the format. So the developer might have to choose to use the game's engine instead of FMVs...so what? The sound might have to be very high quality instead of uber high quality...so what? The bottom line is it's basically the exact same game, and you are saving a lot of money. The 360 would not be successful as a 600-700$ system.

MikeB said: @ JDWolf36 I don't know those games except for FEAR and Oblivion, IMO the last couple years games didn't really advance that much at all. IMO with regard to PC gaming Quake was a significant milestone and later on Half-Life as well. I expect PS3 games to set new milestones though. My PC favourites currently are Cvilization IV, GTA San Andreas and Half-Life 2, pretty much evolutionaire products based on earlier versions. I didn't think that much of consoles for years, until now with the PS3 that is. For me Mario64 on the N64 was the best of all console games I've played, the Snes was pretty cool as well mainly due to Super Mario World. So I am not much of a traditional Playstation "fanboy", although I liked Ape Escape, Crash Bandicoot and Spyro the Dragon games as well. I got interested in the Cell processor initially as I love such innovative developments. Blu-Ray disc is more of a bonus for me, but with regard to gaming and movies IMO far from useless like some here believe. I even think, considering for what Sony is aiming for (not a Nintendo Wii or PS2.5) it's crucial for the long run.

The first two games I mentioned were considered some of the more system stressing games of 2000 the second of 2005 Quake 4 which I'm assuming your referring to came out in 2005 and took storwage wise about 3.2 GB of space, Half-Life 2 came out in 2004 and took storwage wise 4.5 GB of space. The point I was kind of getting at was these games represent the evolution of PC gaming which I chose do to its fewer contraints system wise over the years. Now basically what I was saying is that while I don't really have a problem with the blu-ray format that over the last 5 years we saw an increase in gaming size of about .95GB a year or if you'd like 4.7x either way by the end of the generation I just figured by these estimates that it would be unlikely to see most of the most stressing games filling up more than 23-24 GB of space and most likely falling in a more 9.5 GB range and with the cost of producing DVD's quite a bit lower than blu-ray for the moment it just seems like most people are going to be fine changing DVD's for those games over 9GB and most of them are going to all under that as I used the most stressing games in the examples not the average.  

1. The amiga came out several years after the NES
2. It was $1500 at launch. If anything, the amiga proves that graphics don't mean shit if the system is exorbinatly expensive
3. I can post really small screens of games that make them look better than they really are too;

@ LordTheNIghtKnight

XBox 360 DVD drive speeds specs (Hitachi user guide, this counts for all XBox 360 drives)

And yes this doesn't prove higher capacity is beneficial or not, but just counters your claims.

Surely you are only looking at max transfer speeds, but with dual-layer DVDs the 12x speed drive slows down from 8x speed (max) to 3.3x speed!

I just used this as an example of developers not needing to make sacrifices. The extras won't hurt anyone, but will be beneficial to others now and in the future when people upgrade.

Epic would rather have included additional Maps for free, Gears is a bit lacking in content I think mainly due to storage related sacrifices. Microsoft didn't want to offer a free download.

It's a radically different approach and for optimal results requires game engines to be redesigned to take advantage of the SPUs.

@ sienr

Only for Japan. NES heydays were around 1988 until the Snes was released, about the same as for the Amiga 500.



Sure it does mean something, special effects for sci-fi series like Babylon 5, SeaQuest and Star Trek were rendered on Amiga, the morph effects in Terminator 2 were done on Amiga, animation of disney classics like Lion King and Dinosaur were done on Amigas, etc, etc.

The NES wasn't for everyone, those who bought an Amiga got the power they paid for. The Amiga was multi-functional, I edited home videos in the 80s, adding titlings and special effects not possible on other platforms. The NES wasn't in the same league as Amigas.



You didn't watch the videos or did you?

Larger screenshots:

68000 Amigas

















Amiga 1200 (released the same year as the Snes):

I know there are many Nintendo fans on this board, but the NES simply wasn't interesting for everyone.

Lemmings (Amiga original, 1988)





http://youtube.com/watch?v=h3RB7-FXIEQ

Highly acclaimed NES version released years later:





The Snes version didn't stack up with the original neither (BTW was there a 2 player option in this version like for the original?):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YPRmnVBC6CE

My point is, was the Amiga worthy to be released or should everyone have gone NES? I think so, similarly I think the PS3 is an excellent product and isn't in the same league as the Nintendo Wii.

MikeB said: Epic would rather have included additional Maps for free, Gears is a bit lacking in content I think mainly due to storage related sacrifices. Microsoft didn't want to offer a free download.

I'll skip everything else talked about and just point out that this comment is incorrect.  There was space on the dvd for more levels.  I can't say why some of it wasn't included (I know some of it was being worked on after the game was released) but it definately wasn't because of some lack of space.  And I don't think it was because of money because Epic wanted to offer the updates for free.  Actually come to think of it they did the exact same thing with Unreal Tournament and that was for PC and they had no space constraints there.

It turns out the original post on this thread is incorrect. Microsoft has stated that H3 will be on one disk. The photos of the package apparently included some incorrect bonus disks.

http://www.xbox360fanboy.com/2007/06/09/halo-3-disc-count-fiasco-clarified/