WarHawk 6.5/10 is not bad. They must of complained about WarHawk being solely online and too hard for novices. Getting pwned online straight away would turn people off.

MGS 4 will be a much better game than GTA IV. 

Actually, I made no comparision between Bioshock and MGS4.  I responded to someone elses comment on Bioshock, then made my own seperate comment on MGS4

Don't worry, we all make mistakes.  Your good. 

I guess your right, I made a mistake. I thought you were calling MGS a niche game, but being we both know it can be played as a shooter, it's a lot more then a stealth game.

So you were saying one of the ways it can be played is in a market dominated my MGS... you made no reference to it's appeal in the other markets it's in.

Fair enough. 

Actually I referred to it as a stealth shooter earlier in the thread.  I was actually worried about people attacking me  for that, because whenever people claim MGS4 is a shooter in the "which console is a shooter" debate, Sony fans shoot them down.

I dont think shooter fans would pick MGS4 over Gears of War or Halo 3 or CoD4 for their shooter-fix generally speaking.  Stealth as a genre is declining, but as I said, it remains dominated, more than ever, by MGS4. 

 So I originally read your post to imply that you feel MGS only appeals to Stealth Shooter fans, and you said I was wrong. Then after I apologize, you reiterate that you think MGS only appeals to stealth shooter fans.

So that we are on the same page, let me ask you some quick yes/no questions.

1. Do you think MGS appeals to more then Stealth Shooter fans?
2. Do you you think stealth shooter games now fall into a niche market?
3. Do you you think BioShock appeals to a wide audience?

 That should clear up the confusion :)

I think you're all putting words into Starcraft's mouth.

"This game will be awesome for people who like this genre" I think he meant the same thing everyone means--obviously you have to like a genre in order to like the games in that genre. But if you do, this game will be awesome, which isn't true about every game in any genre.

"Stealth is becoming bit of a niche" -- not "MGS4 is niche" but the genre has become a niche- he was talking genre, not game. Obviously shooters are less niche than stealth games. Is that realy up for argument? Yes, MGS games transcend it somewhat, but as a good friend, and huge PS and MS fan, said to me last night "MGS is about as nice a franchise can be for one that sells as well as it did. Lets look at sales:

MGS: 5.59m sales on an install base of 100m
MGS2: 5.56m sales on an install base of 120m
MGS3: 3.97m sales on an install base of 120m

GTAIII: 11.6m sales on an install base of 120m
GTA:VC: 14.2m sales on an install base of 120m
GTA:SA: 17.1m sales on an install base of 120m
GTAIV: 8.1m sales (so far) on an install base of 31.7m (so far)
Halo: 6.43m sales on an install base of 24m
Halo 2: 8.46m sales on an install base of 24m
Halo 3: 7.82m sales (so far) on an install base of 19m (so far)

(yes, I know I'm leaving off Substance and Subsistence. Neither would have made a ton of difference with inclusion).

MGS games simply do not have the mainstream appeal of most games of similar quality. Of all the "huge" franchises in video games, they consistently sell near the worst with near the lowest attach rate. You can see the same things if you compared MGS to Mario games, Zelda games, Smash Brothers games, Mario Kart games, Pokemon games, Gran Turismo games or Final Fantasy games (though PS2 FF games actually are pretty similar in sales to MGS games, if still all better sellers than MGS3) This is not a knock on the games by any mean. They're phenomenal games, which is why they've been able to transcend their genre to the extent that they have. But stealth is a niche genre. Always will be.

Granted, MGS4 might be different, since it's by all account a stealth/shooter hybrid, but we'll see when it comes out.

EDIT: Or maybe Starcraft will jsut dig himself into a deeper whole. I still stand by my point.

I keep getting more hyped for this game every day.

 While I agree MGS is not going to sell like Halo or GTA (for a Sony exclusive, that's GT's job), I think the numbers above are a little misleading.

When MGS came out, there were not 100m PS1's, and when MGS2 came out, there were not 120 million PS2's

MGS 4 will be lucky if it cracks 3 million sales LTD mark. Based on small PS3 install base, taking into account past attach rates of MGS on PS2. Having said that it is too hard to predict the sales of MGS 4.

MGS4 has been hyped more than the previous ones though