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Forums - General Discussion - Do you know How Hugo Chavez is? Political thread

mancandy said:

Show me something in the Patriot Act that has removed American's civil liberties.


Sure... 

A passage from Wikipedia:

"The act also expanded the definition of terrorism to include “domestic terrorism,” thus enlarging the number of activities to which the Patriot Act’s expanded law enforcement powers can be applied."

Now the only problem with this is that their definition of domestic terrorism is so broad that it can include pretty much anyone and any group the government wants.  For example the Department of Homeland Security pulled a page from it's website that listed gay rights, animal rights, anti-war groups, environmentalists, and environmental groups falling under "domestic terrorism" because in their opinion they could spawn domestic terrorists.  So the government has the ability to do searches without their permission, read their financial, medical, email, and phone records and can detain them without charge or court order and not be required to tell friends or family where they have been taken.  A member of a gay rights group that was mentioned was shocked because the group has always been peaceful and it's members are all upstanding citizens in society including lawyers, doctors, etc.

I feel the Patriot Act is *extremely dangerous* because if an administration got in that was even more to the religious right than the Bush Administration (yes I know that seems unbelievable now but you never know what the future holds) they could use the Act to persecute groups they're opposed to such as gays, etc.

Sources: http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid45479.asp http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid45479.asp



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Legend11 said:
mancandy said:

Show me something in the Patriot Act that has removed American's civil liberties.


Sure...

A passage from Wikipedia:

"The act also expanded the definition of terrorism to include “domestic terrorism,” thus enlarging the number of activities to which the Patriot Act’s expanded law enforcement powers can be applied."

Now the only problem with this is that their definition of domestic terrorism is so broad that it can include pretty much anyone and any group the government wants. For example the Department of Homeland Security pulled a page from it's website that listed gay rights, animal rights, anti-war groups, environmentalists, and environmental groups falling under "domestic terrorism" because in their opinion they could spawn domestic terrorists. So the government has the ability to do searches without their permission, read their financial, medical, email, and phone records and can detain them without charge or court order and not be required to tell friends or family where they have been taken. A member of a gay rights group that was mentioned was shocked because the group has always been peaceful and it's members are all upstanding citizens in society including lawyers, doctors, etc.

I feel the Patriot Act is *extremely dangerous* because if an administration got in that was even more to the religious right than the Bush Administration (yes I know that seems unbelievable now but you never know what the future holds) they could use the Act to persecute groups they're opposed to such as gays, etc.

Sources: http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid45479.asp http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid45479.asp

Thanks for example Legend11. I agree with you that the Patriot Act is dangerous. However, many of the provisions you mentioned are being challenged as unconstitutional. American citizens and law makers have to power to make changes to this act or remove it altogether. That's my point, soon Chavez will have a stranglehold of Venezuelan goverment where people will no longer have a voice. So what would your choice be Bush or Chavez? 



Wii Code 8761-5941-4718-0078 

Neither because they both have the same major flaw that really annoys me, they appoint people to important positions that don't merit it.



You mean like hotdog vendors.



Wii Code 8761-5941-4718-0078 

Yes and former FEMA director Michael Brown for example.



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VonShigsy said:

Your Mother is right. (that sounded weird..) Far from us to discuss about the head of state of another country since everybody is buying their own conveniant truth. But i wouldn't go so far as patronising me as you did elprincipe. The bush administration is considered worldwide one of the worst ever no matter how you spin it. It's that attitude of "father knows best" that fuels anti-usa feelings all over the world. Who are you to tell what is right or how a country should be run, better than it's own inhabitants? Praising capitalism in favor of the "west" way does nothing for the needs of these people. You don't raise a wind of change if you are the only one to profit.

Btw, an american blaming me for ingorance is pretty funny. And when i say "blackmail" i was reffering to Russia and Saudi Arabia. Both of them use their natural resource for leverage.The latter country, also being one of the worst countries in the world on human rights and back to back buddies with the USA. Hypocritic much? I don't see the Bush administration crying about their stance on women rights. Even in Iran (Axis of Evil) they have more liberties than a Saudic Woman could ever dream of.

And is USA so afraid of communism anyway? Is this a leftover from the Mcarthy era? Your bogeyman is now terror, get over it.


Of course, as many people are wont to do, you take me as a Bush supporter because I don't decry his administration as the "worst ever" or brand him a "terrorist" or use similar rhetoric.  We see your opinion clearly here, but I can't respect anyone who buys into that line of thinking.  It's like the Republicans branding the Democrats "traitors" for having a different opinion on Iraq.

BTW, are you really saying that the U.S. is trying to tell other countries the way they should be run?  Do you know what the word "democracy" means?  If the U.S. supports democracy (your point about being friends with Saudi Arabia is well taken, but let's leave that aside for now - I don't agree with our current policy in any case), how is that telling others how to run their country?  They are the ones who vote and choose their own way.

As for capitalism versus other economic systems, please tell me any non-capitalist society existing in the world today that is prosperous.  I think I'll be waiting quite a while since there are none.

Americans don't like communism because we have seen what affect it had on the world from 1917-1991 and continuing in smaller pockets.  Americans aren't fans of brutal, repressive regimes that attempt to dominate other countries, threaten the world with nuclear weapons, kill millions of their own people, etc.

Oh, and one more thing:  if you think terrorism is a "bogeyman," you haven't been paying much attention to the news in the last few years. 



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Legend11 said:
Yes and former FEMA director Michael Brown for example.

To be fair, before becoming FEMA director he was a horse show judge. ;) 



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betsfro said:
i for the record i live like 5 block from that university and i heard the shots from my house, was like a war zone
  Stay safe, man, and good luck with everything.

 



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I sure wish this country could be neutral and and an isolationist like it once was. Every President, from Truman to Bush, has soiled on Washington's Farewell Address. That man surely knew how the world turned.



Chavez is probably going to be the next third world leader to get ousted by a CIA backed coup, mostly due to his left-leaning politics, and more importantly nationalizing his county's oil reserves.

As much as I sympathize with him for being a democratically elected leftist trying to stand up to America, he's pretty much a populist asshole running a program with holes the size of small rainforests in it, and bullying his opponents out of politics.

Competently handled left wing economic policies?
Very good, just look as Scandinavia.

Incompetently handled left wing economic policies?
Very bad, just look at the Soviet Union.