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Forums - Gaming Discussion - GTA IV demonstrates HD console userbase desperation

LOL, not exactly, though that does seem to be how it's turned out.

basically it goes:

Point 1 - Reviewers are limited to giving a score to a game based on their interests and what they place the most value on a game, sales of other differing game shows that this score is not valid for everyone. Since GTA IV has gotten excellent scores for games, it makes it more apparent what specific fields are given the most value when determining the score a game is given.

Point 2 - There are a lot of threads comparing PS3 and 360 versions. GTA IV is yet another of the numerous PS3&360 games that has had each version compared to try to determine which system is superior. However it also felt like these arguments were even more numerous and vocal than previously experienced.
If one system is not recognized as superior to the other, then both will be treated as being much the same and the majority of games will end up being designed to be used on both, which will make it difficult for games to take advantage of the strengths of the system which results in neither system being able to demonstrate its superiority, thus continuing the vicious cycle.



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My Prediction: Wii will be achieve 48% market share by the end of 2008, and will achieve 50% by the end of june of 09. Prediction Failed.

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Grey Acumen said:

also, this. I dont' need to know that much about GTA IV to know that it's considered the best in its genre, but quite frankly, Brawl is the best at what it does and Wii sports is the best at what it does, DDR is the best at what it does, yet there are going to be differences in score due to what individual preference is, and GTA IV, regardless of what it actually has, demonstrates the focus of what reviewers are scoring games based off of, which judging by sales rate of other lower scored games is obviously not the ONLY thing that gamers are interested in.


 I have some questions for you then.

If the system of reviewing is off, how would you change it? And if you did change it, how would you see these games you have mentioned above rate against each other? Or in your new system, would they not rate against each other at all?

Why did this topic only happen to come up now, when GTA was reviewed higher then any game before it? Is it this one incident that caused you to feel the system is broken, or did you feel this way when SSBB or SMG got incredibly high scores as well?

 



Actually, I've long since known the rating system is flawed. Reviews themselves are still tolerable, but a single number that is trying to evaluate games within a market that has such a diverse and often conflicting set of interests is just not feasible. GTA IV was merely a game that has gotten a perfect score which makes it more clear where reviewers primary interests are. I've already suggested various ways in which a rating system could be handled, depending on what level of interaction you're allowing from the consumer.

One of my ideas was the Wii Review Channel. The setup was originally intended to be specifically to handle the diverse consumer group that the Wii has been intended to target. However the basic premise; that the way you rate games yourself will act as a filter to find rating made by people with similar interests to your own, could potentially be set up for general use as well.

So simply put, when you are looking at the rating of a game, it will first look at games you've rated already, and look for people who have given similar reviews to yours in order to create an average review for that game. Of course, people that have rated games completely differently will be more likely to be filtered out and not used to create the average.

Of course, that becomes difficult to implement without the user first interacting.

Another possible method would be to essentially attach a name to every rating such as "battle grit 10" or "fantasy adventure 7" or "artistic puzzle 9" so that the game is first given a rough category, and then scored for its quality within that category. This would hopefully let reviewers rate the quality of the game on the intention of its focus.

The problems with this would still be finding people to review games that could actually do that. I'm not about to pass that off as an easy thing to do. It's not as much of an issue with an open community with filters like my wii review channel suggestion, but asking one person to essentially do that same job alone is usually asking far too much.

the only other solution that can really be offered, or perhaps used to combine with the previously mentioned idea, is to fall back to a more simplified rating system, such as A, B C, D, F and combine that with a date, like 08.3 = March of 2008.

C is an average game for its genre. D is a game that has frustrating problems, but is still playable, F is for games that have problems making it nearly or completely unplayable. B is for games that show quality, and A is for games that raise the bar for the entire genre

so for instance, Wii sports would be A-06.11, GTA IV would be A-08.5, as they both raised the bar for their specific genres.



Seppukuties is like LBP Lite, on crack. Play it already!

Currently wrapped up in: Half Life, Portal, and User Created Source Mods
Games I want: (Wii)Mario Kart, Okami, Bully, Conduit,  No More Heroes 2 (GC) Eternal Darkness, Killer7, (PS2) Ico, God of War1&2, Legacy of Kain: SR2&Defiance


My Prediction: Wii will be achieve 48% market share by the end of 2008, and will achieve 50% by the end of june of 09. Prediction Failed.

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Grey I think I remember you mentioning something like this in the past. I can't remember when or where though. I agree with this idea whole-heartedly.

edit: Sou desu ka! I saw the link you just mentioned in your post after mine... ^_^



luinil said:
Grey I think I remember you mentioning something like this in the past. I can't remember when or where though. I agree with this idea whole-heartedly.
You probably remember me mentioning it from the Wii Review Channel thread I made, which if you look at my post just above, I have a link to :P

 



Seppukuties is like LBP Lite, on crack. Play it already!

Currently wrapped up in: Half Life, Portal, and User Created Source Mods
Games I want: (Wii)Mario Kart, Okami, Bully, Conduit,  No More Heroes 2 (GC) Eternal Darkness, Killer7, (PS2) Ico, God of War1&2, Legacy of Kain: SR2&Defiance


My Prediction: Wii will be achieve 48% market share by the end of 2008, and will achieve 50% by the end of june of 09. Prediction Failed.

<- Click to see more of her

 

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reviewers:

as long as the controls dont suck, gamers still have a huge advantage. it is ingrained in us to change to the situation. gamers will innovate in order to win.

reviewers are "hardcore." they know its their audience and they do preach to the choir. i also happen to think that they mostly dont like new casual games, because they are used to games with depth instead of all flash like most new ones are. yes im implying that casual games can have depth (saying like gta and smash. pick up and play, but so much game there)


now to comment on brawl. brawl maybe deserves a 9. there are just too many problems and it isnt as fun as melee (although fun is relative). the two things that get me are ice climbers and camping. campy characters just plain win and the ice climbers are broken. chudat showed how to kill using ic chain grab, so there isnt really an excuse. camping characters should have been exposed during beta. tripping is also one of the worst additions to any series i have ever heard of.



my pillars of gaming: kh, naughty dog, insomniac, ssb, gow, ff

i officially boycott boycotts.  crap.

The Ghost of RubangB said:
Deviation59 said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:
wartaal said:
basicly, the improvements gta 4 made from gta SA were bigger than ssbb did compared to even the original n64 smash brothers.
in almost 10 years nintendo just used the same basic formula with some minor tweaks. the next smash brothers will be very similar to the other three and nintendo will throw in some next characters > nintendo fanboys happy.


gta4 is pushing both consoles to its limits, therefore it will be having some minor errors that will soon be fixed hopefully.


"Improving a series" and "pushing a console to its limits" have nothing to do with each other.

Brawl pushes the Wii closer to its limits than ever before, seeing as how it is the ONLY dual-layered disc on the system, so it's potentially twice as big as other Wii games.

What did GTA4 change gameplay wise? Did it tigthen the controls a little bit? Is that innovation now? That's expected. In fact, that's what we want and is the exact opposite of innovation. It's improvement, but ... not more than Brawl was.


You obviously know nothing about the game as the changes and improvements are insanely extensive. No game has ever come anywhere near this close to creating a real, living, breathing place inhabited by vibrant individual personalities you can interract with. I don't believe that any game ever previously released, ever, has been this deep with this much to do, this packed with details and interaction. It goes far beyond any game I have ever played before and video games have been my hobby since 1990.

All of the things the game has improved on and all of the new innovations and additions are so numerous I'm literally left with my head spinning as to where to even start. This is a game that grows on you and sucks you in and becomes better with every minute you spend playing it. Sure, in the first half hour or so it just seems like GTA in HD but by the time you've put ten hours into it you start to understand why it's so much more than the average game and the enormity of Rockstar's accomplishment begins to dawn on you. By the time you've put twenty to thirty hours into it and you're incredibly immersed in the whole experience you're spouting off the same superlatives that IGN's 7 page 10/10 review was giving out while constantly coming up with new ones. The 10/10 that came from IGN's most respected reviewer on a site that hadn't given out 10's since Ocarina of Time and Soul Caliber.

If GTA IV ends up being the highest rated game of all time, it will have earned it, handily - and I think that's the only reason Nintendo fans even care about it - it might displace Ocarina of Time. How would you like it if I dismissed that game as "just another Zelda game" while ignoring all of the innovations it brought to the table because I couldn't be arsed to play it or even fucking read a review for it?


Hey I'm not just some Zelda fanboy freaking out about OoT. Dismiss OoT all you want. I prefer Link's Awakening or Twilight Princess anyway. But OoT's innovation was huge. OoT paved the way for GTA3 and 4. OoT invented the 3rd-person lock-on targeting system for both melee and ranged weapons. And even then, OoT used that targeting system in combination with the camera better than any of the GTA3 games.

I'd like to know how the gameplay changed in GTA4. I really do. I might play it some day. I've played every GTA game that came before it, from PC to GBA. I haven't heard of any innovative GAMEPLAY in a single thread here. All I hear is crap about "the detail" and "the living breathing world" and... I want to know how my fingers press buttons to make new things happen that didn't happen in San Andreas.

When I play games I don't get to hold vibrant individual personalities in my hand. I hold a controller. How has it changed the way the game is played? Anybody?


 Reading comprehension FTW. I never dismissed Ocarina of Time, it's a great game.



soccerdrew17 said:
reviewers:

as long as the controls dont suck, gamers still have a huge advantage. it is ingrained in us to change to the situation. gamers will innovate in order to win.

reviewers are "hardcore." they know its their audience and they do preach to the choir. i also happen to think that they mostly dont like new casual games, because they are used to games with depth instead of all flash like most new ones are. yes im implying that casual games can have depth (saying like gta and smash. pick up and play, but so much game there)


now to comment on brawl. brawl maybe deserves a 9. there are just too many problems and it isnt as fun as melee (although fun is relative). the two things that get me are ice climbers and camping. campy characters just plain win and the ice climbers are broken. chudat showed how to kill using ic chain grab, so there isnt really an excuse. camping characters should have been exposed during beta. tripping is also one of the worst additions to any series i have ever heard of.

Are you seriously using the logic that because you can't figure out how to deal with these tactics, that the game deserves a lower rating? and what the heck are you talking with camping? That only works if you're playing a stock match and are going up against retarded opponents who don't notice that you're camping. If you try camping in a timed match, you won't get any kills and even if you're not last, you won't get first. As for the ice climbers, DON'T LET THEM GRAB YOU. Air based attacks and quick dodging will deal with a lot of this. Sorry, but I just don't see how it being more likely for a skilled player to beat a novice player is something to complain about.  Also the tripping is designed to act as a deterent to spamming moves. still though, brawl is way off topic, if you want to continue that, switch to private messages or go to the brawl thread to complain. I'm sure you'll find plenty of people who are entirely capable of dealing with the issues you've raised.



Seppukuties is like LBP Lite, on crack. Play it already!

Currently wrapped up in: Half Life, Portal, and User Created Source Mods
Games I want: (Wii)Mario Kart, Okami, Bully, Conduit,  No More Heroes 2 (GC) Eternal Darkness, Killer7, (PS2) Ico, God of War1&2, Legacy of Kain: SR2&Defiance


My Prediction: Wii will be achieve 48% market share by the end of 2008, and will achieve 50% by the end of june of 09. Prediction Failed.

<- Click to see more of her

 

Oh yeah, it's your implication that disruption is mutually exclusive with games being incredibly good. That is how that comment came across, that Nintendo is putting disruption over their games being incredibly good.


I didn't say that. Its even harder to do both something completely new and very good but it is of course possible.
Its not done very often though I mean even Nintendo didn't change their flagship titles very much.



Just remove scores all together.