Quantcast
MS: 1st party Xbox games will be cross-gen for "next year, two years"

Forums - Microsoft Discussion - MS: 1st party Xbox games will be cross-gen for "next year, two years"

Pemalite said:
HollyGamer said:

Cryengine that u shows is still not even the same level nor the same type . It's not even the same ray tracing technique, that exist on modern GPU. You just shows. Even Crytek it self just shows their " real Ray Tracing " using AMD GPu

...Ummm. That is exactly my point? Haven't you read anything I posted or the evidence I have presented?

That Real time ray tracing demo is actually from CryEngine 5.5.
The demo I provided prior is from CryEngine 3.0... There is a decades worth of difference in development there.

HollyGamer said:

That's what i call raytracing.

What you call Ray Tracing is irrelevant, Ray Tracing is Ray Tracing whether you like it or not... You nor I are in a position to dictate what tracing is or isn't for the entire movie/gaming/technology community.

HollyGamer said:

And also you are confused by Ray tracing definition and Real Time global illumination. Real Time raytracing are part of Global Illumination , but not All Global Illumination technique can be considered  "Ray Tracing ". There are several methods on Global illumination , like Voxel-based Global Illumination, Light Propagation Volumes Global Illumination,  Ray Tracing and path tracing etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_illumination

False. I am not confusing Global Illumination and Ray Tracing, please go back and re-read my posts and read the evidence.

And you are correct, not all Global Illumination techniques can be considered ray tracing, many G.I implementations rely on Radiosity for example... I know what I am talking about here.

And everything else you listed... I have already touched upon prior. (Again, the importance of being bothered to actually read my posts.)


HollyGamer said:

The link that you shows (Cryengine 3.0)  are part of global illumination technique , but not ray tracing or even path tracing. 

Again. The Importance of Reading and watching the evidence I have provided.

I provided a video from CryEngine 3.0 which showcases Partial Ray marching which is Ray Tracing... In-fact many implementations of screen-space ambient occlusion and modern Volumetric Fog can rely on Ray Marching.
https://artis.inrialpes.fr/Membres/Olivier.Hoel/ssao/nVidiaHSAO/ScreenSpaceAO.pdf
http://raytracey.blogspot.com/2011/08/ray-tracing-in-cryengine-3.html

https://docs.cryengine.com/display/SDKDOC2/Volumetric+Fog

Even Unreal Engine from 2011 had some Ray Tracing support.
https://www.nvidia.com/content/PDF/GDC2011/Epic.pdf

goopy20 said:

This would all be true if MS targeted super high-end gaming pc's and then scale them down for the next gen consoles. With current gen that was easy since the GTX660 was already pretty dated when the ps4/Xone launched and the Jaguar cpu was terrible compared to the average pc cpu's. This time around they are talking about SSD, a zen 2 cpu and a 12Tflops gpu, which is comparable to a $1000 RTX2080. Truth is that 99% of the pc gamers don't have anything close to those kind of specs when they launch, and it can take years before they become main stream on pc. 

Er. Navi 2.0 isn't out yet, we don't know how it compares to the RTX2080... Nor can we use some arbitrary flops numbers to make any comparative assumptions either as flops is ultimately not a denominator that tells us the complete capabilities of a processor.
Plus for all we know the GPU in the Xbox One Series X and Playstation 5 could be as fast as an RTX 2080 with half the Ray Tracing capabilities. - We just don't know.

PC's have had SSD's for years, I have had one personally since the OCZ Vertex 2 came out over a decade ago... Not to mention "SSD" is a pretty arbitrary term, the Wii technically had an SSD, so did the Wii U and so does the Switch, Load times still existed, games weren't some special-sauce experience not able to be found elsewhere. (Granted they used EMMC, but that is still an SSD.)

And not to mention SSD's do not replace Ram, PC's have more Ram, thus the need for an SSD is somewhat lessened.

Zen 2 in the consoles is only lower-mid range at best as only half a dozen CPU cores at a moderate clockrate will be available for actual gaming, PC will still be in a league of it's own, naturally.




It's true that we don't know the exact specs, but it's pretty safe to assume that they're going to be lot more powerful than the average gaming pc when they launch. I mean around 75% of the Steam users are gaming on a GTX1060 or lower and 50% of them have 8gb of ram. Just because things like SSD have been around on pc for a long time, doesn't mean the bulk of pc gamers have a 1TB SSD and play all their games from there. Most pc's have a 250GB SSD, which barely fits the OS and 2 games. Also, there isn't a single pc game that's designed with SSD in mind and lists it as a minimum requirement.

We will see how SSD works on these next gen and how it will impact game design. But do you honestly believe it will be comparable to the Switch, with it's limited bandwith and is capped at 100MB/s. These next gen SSD's will apparently be something special and Sony's calling it the key to the next gen. 

"It’s not just a question of simply slapping an SSD into the system, Sony is claiming that it, presumably alongside AMD, has developed the input/output system to offer something over and above what you’d get from simply dropping some NAND flash into a console. Given that the next generation of AMD Ryzen 3000 CPUs, and the upcoming Navi GPUs, are expected to both be operating on the PCIe 4.0 interface those claims of Sony’s PS5 SSD offering greater raw bandwidth than anything on the PC at the moment make sense. Realistically that’s likely only to be a claim it can make until AMD does launch the new CPUs and accompanying X570 motherboards with their PCIe 4.0 support. The new PCIe interface offers twice the theoretical bandwidth of PCIe 4.0, so the PC won’t be left behind when it comes to raw performance. 

What might impact it, however, is the fact that PS5 developers will be able to rely on a certain level of storage performance from their hardware. A level of performance that they won’t have experienced on consoles before, and cannot rely on when it comes to PC game development either. That could end up in some incredibly rich, detailed, vast gameworlds, all without any loading screens breaking that sense of immersion. When you’ve still got some PC gamers still running from anachronistic spinning data platters that’s not necessarily something that could be matched by default on any subsequent PC port. That, more than anything the PS5’s AMD GPU or CPU performance can offer, could make the next-gen console’s games more advanced than your standard PC gaming fare.

Last edited by goopy20 - 3 days ago

Around the Network
Conina said:
goopy20 said:

This would all be true if MS targeted super high-end gaming pc's and then scale them down for the next gen consoles. With current gen that was easy since the GTX660 was already pretty dated when the ps4/Xone launched and the Jaguar cpu was terrible compared to the average pc cpu's. This time around they are talking about SSD, a zen 2 cpu and a 12Tflops gpu, which is comparable to a $1000 RTX2080. Truth is that 99% of the pc gamers don't have anything close to those kind of specs when they launch, and it can take years before they become main stream on pc. 

Still lying about PC hardware prices? You'll never change.

They are talking about 12Tflops, which if true, puts it between a RTX2080 Super and RTX2080 Ti. Not everyone lives in the US, but over here a 2080Ti sells for almost $1400 and the Super $1000. In any case, it's going to be freaking expensive to buy a gaming rig with the same specs as these new consoles. Especially compared to current gen when you could just buy a GTX750 for $150 and you were good to go. 

Next gen you will need a PCIe 4.0 motherboard, Ryzen CPU, 1TB SSD and at least a RTX2080 Super, just be on par with these next gen consoles, let alone play the latest AAA titles at 144fps in native 4k. This is why I'm excited about next gen and I can't wait to see what games will look like when they're designed around those kind of specs. At least I was, until MS made it clear that they're not targeting those kind of specs at all.    



goopy20 said:
Conina said:

Still lying about PC hardware prices? You'll never change.

They are talking about 12Tflops, which if true, puts it between a RTX2080 Super and RTX2080 Ti. Not everyone lives in the US, but over here a 2080Ti sells for almost $1400 and the Super $1000. In any case, it's going to be freaking expensive to buy a gaming rig with the same specs as these new consoles. Especially compared to current gen when you could just buy a GTX750 for $150 and you were good to go. 

Next gen you will need a PCIe 4.0 motherboard, Ryzen CPU, 1TB SSD and at least a RTX2080 Super, just be on par with these next gen consoles, let alone play the latest AAA titles at 144fps in native 4k. This is why I'm excited about next gen and I can't wait to see what games will look like when they're designed around those kind of specs. At least I was, until MS made it clear that they're not targeting those kind of specs at all.    

How do you know what kind of specs MS is targeting? I have no idea (like you) but they should be higher then Series X, and trickle down from there into the consoles. To make games for the Series X and port to PC is absurd for AAA games.

Sooo this is the narrative for the next year or so? Pretending to care about the plight of Pc gamers owning expensive PCs. All to preserve the glass cannon false confidence of fans that Sony still has a power advantage (as always ignoring 3rd party Series X advantages). 



___________

sales2099 said:
goopy20 said:

They are talking about 12Tflops, which if true, puts it between a RTX2080 Super and RTX2080 Ti. Not everyone lives in the US, but over here a 2080Ti sells for almost $1400 and the Super $1000. In any case, it's going to be freaking expensive to buy a gaming rig with the same specs as these new consoles. Especially compared to current gen when you could just buy a GTX750 for $150 and you were good to go. 

Next gen you will need a PCIe 4.0 motherboard, Ryzen CPU, 1TB SSD and at least a RTX2080 Super, just be on par with these next gen consoles, let alone play the latest AAA titles at 144fps in native 4k. This is why I'm excited about next gen and I can't wait to see what games will look like when they're designed around those kind of specs. At least I was, until MS made it clear that they're not targeting those kind of specs at all.    

How do you know what kind of specs MS is targeting? I have no idea (like you) but they should be higher then Series X, and trickle down from there into the consoles. To make games for the Series X and port to PC is absurd for AAA games.

Sooo this is the narrative for the next year or so? Pretending to care about the plight of Pc gamers owning expensive PCs. All to preserve the glass cannon false confidence of fans that Sony still has a power advantage (as always ignoring 3rd party Series X advantages). 

MS is targeting the specs that would reach them the highest amount of players. That currently means a GTX1060 or lower on pc as that's what roughly 50% of the pc gamers have. And they will never push the SSD tech until 1TB SSD's and PCIe 4.0 becomes mainstream on PC. Who knows how long that will take, could be 1 year or could be 3 years.

What we do know is that games like Horizon Zero Dawn 2 and Spiderman 2 will be able to take full advantage on things like the SSD tech and Ray Tracing as Sony's developers don't have to think about their games running on a whole bunch of less capable devices. That's normally the beauty of consoles. They are a closed platform and developers can make full use of the hardware and do things that weren't possible on previous gen. I mean look at Ray Tracing. Sure, we're already seeing it in pc games where it's a toggle on/off setting. But those games were never build with Ray Tracing in mind. Who knows what they will do with it but here's a glimpse of what Ray Tracing can potentially mean for games that are designed from the ground up to use it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO2hv2jqt-g 

Last edited by goopy20 - 3 days ago

goopy20 said:

What we do know is that games like Horizon Zero Dawn 2 and Spiderman 2 will be able to take full advantage on things like the SSD tech and Ray Tracing

"We know" = "We hope"



Around the Network
goopy20 said:
sales2099 said:

How do you know what kind of specs MS is targeting? I have no idea (like you) but they should be higher then Series X, and trickle down from there into the consoles. To make games for the Series X and port to PC is absurd for AAA games.

Sooo this is the narrative for the next year or so? Pretending to care about the plight of Pc gamers owning expensive PCs. All to preserve the glass cannon false confidence of fans that Sony still has a power advantage (as always ignoring 3rd party Series X advantages). 

MS is targeting the specs that would reach them the highest amount of players. That currently means a GTX1060 or lower on pc as that's what roughly 50% of the pc gamers have. And they will never push the SSD tech until 1TB SSD's and PCIe 4.0 becomes mainstream on PC. Who knows how long that will take, could be 1 year or could be 3 years.

What we do know is that games like Horizon Zero Dawn 2 and Spiderman 2 will be able to take full advantage on things like the SSD tech and Ray Tracing as Sony's developers don't have to think about their games running on a whole bunch of less capable devices. That's normally the beauty of consoles. They are a closed platform and developers can make full use of the hardware and do things that weren't possible on previous gen. I mean look at Ray Tracing. Sure, we're already seeing it in pc games where it's a toggle on/off setting. But those games were never build with Ray Tracing in mind. Who knows what they will do with it but here's a glimpse of what Ray Tracing can potentially mean for games that are designed from the ground up to use it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO2hv2jqt-g 

“The highest amount of players” by making them for PC and scaling down all the way to base XB1. I think you are grossly misinterpreting MSs goal. Do you have any proof whatsoever on what PC specs MS is targeting? And I’d pump the brakes on your optimism...Sony doesn’t exactly have the best history with making use of launch titles ;)

Because on smaller budget titles who cares but for AAA titles, it would be bad for MS to have the Series X games look better then their PC counterpart. That’s just absurd. Fact is that they said they would make for PC first and trickle down the specs accordingly....stands to reason their PC specs are higher then PS5s.

Still have no comment on 3rd party games being superior??They only make up 90% of all Xbox and Ps game sales...no biggie right lol

Look if you acted a little humble and just doubled down on Sony’s superior 1st party portfolio I’d have a lot more respect for your faction of fans. It’s fact and I can’t argue Sony’s stellar games history. But if you insist on clinging to some misplaced hope that Ms will gimp their own exclusives because that’s the only way you can thinly preserve the “power argument” in Sony’s favour...that tells me a lot. First and foremost it’s a smokescreen for insecurity. 

To any other Sony fans reading this...do you all share this sentiment. I’m trying Really Hard to not generalize an entire fan base here. Lol 

Last edited by sales2099 - 3 days ago

___________

sales2099 said:
goopy20 said:

MS is targeting the specs that would reach them the highest amount of players. That currently means a GTX1060 or lower on pc as that's what roughly 50% of the pc gamers have. And they will never push the SSD tech until 1TB SSD's and PCIe 4.0 becomes mainstream on PC. Who knows how long that will take, could be 1 year or could be 3 years.

What we do know is that games like Horizon Zero Dawn 2 and Spiderman 2 will be able to take full advantage on things like the SSD tech and Ray Tracing as Sony's developers don't have to think about their games running on a whole bunch of less capable devices. That's normally the beauty of consoles. They are a closed platform and developers can make full use of the hardware and do things that weren't possible on previous gen. I mean look at Ray Tracing. Sure, we're already seeing it in pc games where it's a toggle on/off setting. But those games were never build with Ray Tracing in mind. Who knows what they will do with it but here's a glimpse of what Ray Tracing can potentially mean for games that are designed from the ground up to use it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO2hv2jqt-g 

“The highest amount of players” by making them for PC and scaling down all the way to base XB1. I think you are grossly misinterpreting MSs goal. Do you have any proof whatsoever on what PC specs MS is targeting? And I’d pump the brakes on your optimism...Sony doesn’t exactly have the best history with making use of launch titles ;)

Because on smaller budget titles who cares but for AAA titles, it would be bad for MS to have the Series X games look better then their PC counterpart. That’s just absurd. Fact is that they said they would make for PC first and trickle down the specs accordingly....stands to reason their PC specs are higher then PS5s.

Still have no comment on 3rd party games being superior??They only make up 90% of all Xbox and Ps game sales...no biggie right lol

Look if you acted a little humble and just doubled down on Sony’s superior 1st party portfolio I’d have a lot more respect for your faction of fans. It’s fact and I can’t argue Sony’s stellar games history. But if you insist on clinging to some misplaced hope that Ms will gimp their own exclusives because that’s the only way you can thinly preserve the “power argument” in Sony’s favour...that tells me a lot. First and foremost it’s a smokescreen for insecurity. 

To any other Sony fans reading this...do you all share this sentiment. I’m trying Really Hard to not generalize an entire fan base here. Lol 

They are not going to use high-end pc as the base specs and then scale down to the Xone man, they're using the Xone as the base platform and scale up for X1X, Series X and PC. Think Gears 5, which some say is one of the best multiplatform games in how it uses the strengths of all platforms. It's the same game across the board where on Xone its running at 30fps and 1080p, on the X1X you get 4k and 60fps. And on high-end pc you get basically the same version as on X1X but with higher res textures. 

It definitely looks and plays better on X1X and PC, but it's not like it's a different game with better ai, physics etc. At it's core it's designed to play exactly the same on all platforms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6v19Ffjs5U   

And yes, multiplatform games should look a bit better on Series X, but it's normal for 3rd party games to be cross-gen for 1 or 2 years. Like I said, it are the exclusives that are supposed to showcase what the new consoles can do early on. Even if they are glorified tech demos.



goopy20 said:
sales2099 said:

“The highest amount of players” by making them for PC and scaling down all the way to base XB1. I think you are grossly misinterpreting MSs goal. Do you have any proof whatsoever on what PC specs MS is targeting? And I’d pump the brakes on your optimism...Sony doesn’t exactly have the best history with making use of launch titles ;)

Because on smaller budget titles who cares but for AAA titles, it would be bad for MS to have the Series X games look better then their PC counterpart. That’s just absurd. Fact is that they said they would make for PC first and trickle down the specs accordingly....stands to reason their PC specs are higher then PS5s.

Still have no comment on 3rd party games being superior??They only make up 90% of all Xbox and Ps game sales...no biggie right lol

Look if you acted a little humble and just doubled down on Sony’s superior 1st party portfolio I’d have a lot more respect for your faction of fans. It’s fact and I can’t argue Sony’s stellar games history. But if you insist on clinging to some misplaced hope that Ms will gimp their own exclusives because that’s the only way you can thinly preserve the “power argument” in Sony’s favour...that tells me a lot. First and foremost it’s a smokescreen for insecurity. 

To any other Sony fans reading this...do you all share this sentiment. I’m trying Really Hard to not generalize an entire fan base here. Lol 

They are not going to use high-end pc as the base specs and then scale down to the Xone man, they're using the Xone as the base platform and scale up for X1X, Series X and PC. Think Gears 5, which some say is one of the best multiplatform games in how it uses the strengths of all platforms. It's the same game across the board where on Xone its running at 30fps and 1080p, on the X1X you get 4k and 60fps. And on high-end pc you get basically the same version as on X1X but with higher res textures. 

It definitely looks and plays better on X1X and PC, but it's not like it's a different game with better ai, physics etc. At it's core it's designed to play exactly the same on all platforms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6v19Ffjs5U   

And yes, multiplatform games should look a bit better on Series X, but it's normal for 3rd party games to be cross-gen for 1 or 2 years. Like I said, it are the exclusives that are supposed to showcase what the new consoles can do early on. Even if they are glorified tech demos.

Nice try. The PC version blows the Xbox X version out of the water. If you think it’s just higher Rez textures I suggest you educate yourself.

https://gamingbolt.com/gears-5-xbox-one-x-vs-xbox-one-vs-pc-

This isn’t the generational leap from PS2 to Ps3. Where games like Assassins Creed, Bioshock, Mass Effect were literally impossible to make on last gen hardware. This gens launch 360 to Xbox One had a much smaller generational gap. Sure games like Ryse and Killzone Shadowfall looked impressive but there wasn’t anything truly revolutionary that wasn’t possible before. Just better graphics and resolution is how you can sum up this entire gen.  Next one is all about better lighting, textures, resolution and frame rate, with even more photo realism. The vast generational gaps are forever in the past. 

But it’s nice to know the entire argument hinges on you hoping and assuming they make games on the lowest platform and scale up when it makes much more sense to make games for the highest denomination and scale down. It’s far easier to do option 2.  

(Insert Captain America quote: I can do this all day) 



___________

sales2099 said:
goopy20 said:

They are not going to use high-end pc as the base specs and then scale down to the Xone man, they're using the Xone as the base platform and scale up for X1X, Series X and PC. Think Gears 5, which some say is one of the best multiplatform games in how it uses the strengths of all platforms. It's the same game across the board where on Xone its running at 30fps and 1080p, on the X1X you get 4k and 60fps. And on high-end pc you get basically the same version as on X1X but with higher res textures. 

It definitely looks and plays better on X1X and PC, but it's not like it's a different game with better ai, physics etc. At it's core it's designed to play exactly the same on all platforms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6v19Ffjs5U   

And yes, multiplatform games should look a bit better on Series X, but it's normal for 3rd party games to be cross-gen for 1 or 2 years. Like I said, it are the exclusives that are supposed to showcase what the new consoles can do early on. Even if they are glorified tech demos.

Nice try. The PC version blows the Xbox X version out of the water. If you think it’s just higher Rez textures I suggest you educate yourself.

https://gamingbolt.com/gears-5-xbox-one-x-vs-xbox-one-vs-pc-

This isn’t the generational leap from PS2 to Ps3. Where games like Assassins Creed, Bioshock, Mass Effect were literally impossible to make on last gen hardware. This gens launch 360 to Xbox One had a much smaller generational gap. Sure games like Ryse and Killzone Shadowfall looked impressive but there wasn’t anything truly revolutionary that wasn’t possible before. Just better graphics and resolution is how you can sum up this entire gen.  Next one is all about better lighting, textures, resolution and frame rate, with even more photo realism. The vast generational gaps are forever in the past. 

But it’s nice to know the entire argument hinges on you hoping and assuming they make games on the lowest platform and scale up when it makes much more sense to make games for the highest denomination and scale down. It’s far easier to do option 2.  

(Insert Captain America quote: I can do this all day) 

If you think there's a generational leap between the Xone and X1X version then fine. Maybe we just have different expectations. 

But how you know the generation leap will be nothing special? Having SSD as standard could be a game changer for level design, and they can do some pretty impressive things with Ray Tracing. 



goopy20 said:
sales2099 said:

Nice try. The PC version blows the Xbox X version out of the water. If you think it’s just higher Rez textures I suggest you educate yourself.

https://gamingbolt.com/gears-5-xbox-one-x-vs-xbox-one-vs-pc-

This isn’t the generational leap from PS2 to Ps3. Where games like Assassins Creed, Bioshock, Mass Effect were literally impossible to make on last gen hardware. This gens launch 360 to Xbox One had a much smaller generational gap. Sure games like Ryse and Killzone Shadowfall looked impressive but there wasn’t anything truly revolutionary that wasn’t possible before. Just better graphics and resolution is how you can sum up this entire gen.  Next one is all about better lighting, textures, resolution and frame rate, with even more photo realism. The vast generational gaps are forever in the past. 

But it’s nice to know the entire argument hinges on you hoping and assuming they make games on the lowest platform and scale up when it makes much more sense to make games for the highest denomination and scale down. It’s far easier to do option 2.  

(Insert Captain America quote: I can do this all day) 

If you think there's a generational leap between the Xone and X1X version then fine. Maybe we just have different expectations. 

But how you know the generation leap will be nothing special? Having SSD as standard could be a game changer for level design, and they can do some pretty impressive things with Ray Tracing. 

I’m saying there was a significant gap, arguably generational, between Pc and Xbox One where as you played it off as superficial enhancements. Couldn’t be more wrong about that...which directly translates to what Series X will be like compared to XB1, except with added benefits like SSD and enhanced ray tracing etc. 

SSD just means less loading times and no texture pop-in. Which I assure you Series X will have that lower end Xbox’s won’t. And I all ready mentioned Turn 10 is demoing next gen ray tracing at GDC, which I assure you won’t be in the base XB versions of Forza 8. You keep proving the pro Xbox argument. Unlike Sony Ms knows how to scale down from PC for years now. 

It’s easier to make games for Pc and scale down. It’s simply less work then making it for the lowest denomination and going up. Your whole argument is just hoping that MS is making their games backwards or target weak PC specs so you can hold on to the PS power narrative. Which is it??? Are they making the XB1 as base platform or mainstream PC specs as the base? Can’t have it both ways and you just come across as desperately trying to figure out a way that makes Xbox look bad while assuming everything in the process. 

Last edited by sales2099 - 2 days ago

___________