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MS: 1st party Xbox games will be cross-gen for "next year, two years"

Forums - Microsoft Discussion - MS: 1st party Xbox games will be cross-gen for "next year, two years"

HollyGamer said:
Pemalite said:

Well. You just look silly now don'cha.
Because even a game like Conker on the ORIGINAL Xbox back in 2005 used "Ray Tracing" to a certain degree.
http://fileadmin.cs.lth.se/cs/Education/EDAN35/lectures/Stefanov10-gi-in-games-notes.pdf

Ray Tracing isn't just this "singular" concept, there are dozens of different types of implementations and usage scenarios... Path Tracing, Cone Tracing, Ray Casting, Beam Tracing and more... All with different hardware demands, pro's and con's. - They are all Ray Tracing.
Ray Tracing didn't just happen overnight, it is hardware accelerated Ray Tracing using dedicated processing cores that is a new thing... Otherwise you have been exposed to Ray Tracing in some form or another for decades.

Voxel based Cone Tracing was implemented in some game engines, namely CryEngine.
https://docs.cryengine.com/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=21268888

Another example of Ray Tracing you might have been exposed to is when developers started using Path Tracing for subsurface scattering which actually occurred in the 7th gen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsurface_scattering

Ray Tracing is just the new tech-buzzword which replaces flops, which replaced bits before it... And people generally don't understand it's usage, it's meaning or it's importance in gaming. - They just know it's "better".

What??? 

So you mean you can compare path tracing on old console with next gen console, thank you

SO I  guess tech company should stay on old tech and hardware 

I don't know how you came to that conclusion, but that isn't one of my statements.

HollyGamer said:

And also please try to learn the difference between voxel cone tracing and ray tracing. They are different and very different in fact. And no Cryengine are not using raytracing. Old hardware can use Ray Tracing many render farm GPU are use to render polygon with ray tracing but it's slow in fact it's super slow that it cannot on real time. Instead it used only on CGI animated movie or hollywood effect.   

They are obviously different. I did state as such prior. But it is all still a form of Ray Tracing.

And I quote myself: "Ray Tracing isn't just this "singular" concept, there are dozens of different types of implementations and usage scenarios..."

CryEngine does use Ray Tracing, I already provided a source direct from CryEngine development documentation... So don't spread mistruths.

Here is CryEngine (2010) using Global Illumination which is based on Partial Ray marching which is another form of Ray Tracing. Skip to 1:49.




Last edited by Pemalite - 4 days ago

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Pemalite said:
HollyGamer said:

What??? 

So you mean you can compare path tracing on old console with next gen console, thank you

SO I  guess tech company should stay on old tech and hardware 

I don't know how you came to that conclusion, but that isn't one of my statements.

HollyGamer said:

And also please try to learn the difference between voxel cone tracing and ray tracing. They are different and very different in fact. And no Cryengine are not using raytracing. Old hardware can use Ray Tracing many render farm GPU are use to render polygon with ray tracing but it's slow in fact it's super slow that it cannot on real time. Instead it used only on CGI animated movie or hollywood effect.   

They are obviously different. I did state as such prior. But it is all still a form of Ray Tracing.

And I quote myself: "Ray Tracing isn't just this "singular" concept, there are dozens of different types of implementations and usage scenarios..."

CryEngine does use Ray Tracing, I already provided a source direct from CryEngine development documentation... So don't spread mistruths.


You are correct Cry Engine can use  ray tracing, but not the  Crysis back in 2007. But the new cryengine with RT they are using were develop on modern GPU Vega 56 and we already seen it. It's limited effect and using alot of GPU source. I don't have enough confident it can tackle modern games like Battlefield v with all RT effect on.   



goopy20 said:
LudicrousSpeed said:

The goal posts continue to shift. Don’t tire yourself out now, there’s a lot of time before next gen. 

How strange that you’re complaining about this supposed lack of games from Microsoft when everything you’re upset about, be it GamePass, xCloud, or cross gen, all revolve around games. Traditional, “real” gaming. To compare it to Kinect or the TVTVTV Xbone reveal is just a massive reach, one you’re only making because your main arguments are weak and have been picked apart. 

To answer your question, if MS releases cross gen games for the first year of XSX (and that’s all they said it might be, the first year of next gen, so you don’t have to keep throwing out first two years or five years or whatever), I’ll be good either way because I own a Scorpio and will own a Series X. 

There’s a big difference between cross gen games for a max of one year into next gen versus five years.

It isn't exactly rocket science what MS is trying to do here. The 360 started out as a great console until MS noticed how the Wii was selling and did a complete u-turn with Kinect. They completely abandoned their core fan base and went after the casuals. With the Xone they wanted their console to be a kinect powered Apple TV clone that could also play games, and again pissed all over their fan base. Next gen it sounds like they want to be a subscription platform where their games can be played on as many devices as possible. 

MS always seems to be looking at a bigger picture, instead of just a gaming console. Now, from a business perspective I'm sure Game Pass and reaching a broader audience is great. But as a gamer, I don't care how much $$ they make by limiting all their 1st party titles so they can run on a bunch of devices with just a fraction of the Series X capabilities. I care about seeing the best games possible on their Series X and they've literally told us that's not their main goal. 

You can get defensive all you want but if you are perfectly happy with their strategy, you wouldn't care if their 1st party games would be cross platform for 1 or 2 years. Obviously, you don't approve and all you can do is convince yourself that 1 or 2 years isn't that long and Sony's first wave of ps5 exclusives won't make good use of the new tech anyway.      

How bizarre to see you bitching about them abandoning core gamers last gen as justification for why you... hate that they arent abandoning gamers this gen 😆

Also as a gamer idc about how much money they make either. I care about games which is why GamePass is so great.



LudicrousSpeed said:
goopy20 said:

It isn't exactly rocket science what MS is trying to do here. The 360 started out as a great console until MS noticed how the Wii was selling and did a complete u-turn with Kinect. They completely abandoned their core fan base and went after the casuals. With the Xone they wanted their console to be a kinect powered Apple TV clone that could also play games, and again pissed all over their fan base. Next gen it sounds like they want to be a subscription platform where their games can be played on as many devices as possible. 

MS always seems to be looking at a bigger picture, instead of just a gaming console. Now, from a business perspective I'm sure Game Pass and reaching a broader audience is great. But as a gamer, I don't care how much $$ they make by limiting all their 1st party titles so they can run on a bunch of devices with just a fraction of the Series X capabilities. I care about seeing the best games possible on their Series X and they've literally told us that's not their main goal. 

You can get defensive all you want but if you are perfectly happy with their strategy, you wouldn't care if their 1st party games would be cross platform for 1 or 2 years. Obviously, you don't approve and all you can do is convince yourself that 1 or 2 years isn't that long and Sony's first wave of ps5 exclusives won't make good use of the new tech anyway.      

How bizarre to see you bitching about them abandoning core gamers last gen as justification for why you... hate that they arent abandoning gamers this gen 😆

Also as a gamer idc about how much money they make either. I care about games which is why GamePass is so great.

I never said they're abandoning gamers. I'm saying their abandoning the core Xbox fan base, who can't wait to buy their Series X and play next gen games. They're main goal has simply shifted from competing with Sony in the console market and pushing next gen tech, towards reaching a broader audience with GP. Obviously, Kinect, the TV stuff and GP are totally different things. But they all share the same purpose, going after a broader audience. And if history has taught us anything, it's that it usually comes at the expense of giving the Xbox fan base what they want.  

I ain't no game developer but there's one thing everyone and their grandmothers knows: Games designed for a single, closed platform will always push the hardware better than games designed for a whole bunch of devices with different specs.  

Last edited by goopy20 - 4 days ago

goopy20 said:
LudicrousSpeed said:

How bizarre to see you bitching about them abandoning core gamers last gen as justification for why you... hate that they arent abandoning gamers this gen 😆

Also as a gamer idc about how much money they make either. I care about games which is why GamePass is so great.

I never said they're abandoning gamers. I'm saying their abandoning the core Xbox fan base, who can't wait to buy their Series X and play next gen games. They're main goal has simply shifted from competing with Sony in the console market and pushing next gen tech, towards reaching a broader audience with GP. Obviously, Kinect and GP are two totally different things. But they both share the same purpose, going after a broader audience. And if history has taught us anything, it's that it usually comes at the expense of giving the Xbox fan base what they want.  

I ain't no game developer but there's one thing everyone and their grandmothers knows: Games designed for a single, closed platform will always push the hardware better than games designed for a whole bunch of devices with different specs.  

You're complaining that they aren't abandoning core gamers this gen. Right in the same thread where you're complaining about what they did last gen, which was abandon core gamers. Textbook damned if you do and damned if you don't.

And hey, another goal post shift. I think we all know software tailored to certain devices works better than something scalable and designed for many devices. See: iOS vs Android. But that is completely irrelevant to this thread and the argument you've lost thus far in it. No one is saying a game built from the ground up for XSX can't be more advanced than a game built for cross gen. We're simply saying it's not a big deal and won't make a big difference to launch window titles, and we have history and logic backing us up. Remember, as much as you try to stretch the window out to two to three to five years, they've only said that at max, one year of XSX first party content would be cross gen.

And how in the world would GamePass get in the way of giving Xbox owners want they want lol. Literally all it gives gamers is games. What nonsense.



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This seems like such an obvious idea. I am shocked the console industry has been so slow to do this - smart platforms have done this for a decade. Many third parties have done this since the PS2 era.

What would really impress me is if the media between the two consoles was compatible without some kind of BS shoehorned in Wii U style Wii-mode thing. I mean that the games function properly on the Xbox Two platform.

Last edited by Jumpin - 4 days ago

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LudicrousSpeed said:
goopy20 said:

I never said they're abandoning gamers. I'm saying their abandoning the core Xbox fan base, who can't wait to buy their Series X and play next gen games. They're main goal has simply shifted from competing with Sony in the console market and pushing next gen tech, towards reaching a broader audience with GP. Obviously, Kinect and GP are two totally different things. But they both share the same purpose, going after a broader audience. And if history has taught us anything, it's that it usually comes at the expense of giving the Xbox fan base what they want.  

I ain't no game developer but there's one thing everyone and their grandmothers knows: Games designed for a single, closed platform will always push the hardware better than games designed for a whole bunch of devices with different specs.  

You're complaining that they aren't abandoning core gamers this gen. Right in the same thread where you're complaining about what they did last gen, which was abandon core gamers. Textbook damned if you do and damned if you don't.

And hey, another goal post shift. I think we all know software tailored to certain devices works better than something scalable and designed for many devices. See: iOS vs Android. But that is completely irrelevant to this thread and the argument you've lost thus far in it. No one is saying a game built from the ground up for XSX can't be more advanced than a game built for cross gen. We're simply saying it's not a big deal and won't make a big difference to launch window titles, and we have history and logic backing us up. Remember, as much as you try to stretch the window out to two to three to five years, they've only said that at max, one year of XSX first party content would be cross gen.

And how in the world would GamePass get in the way of giving Xbox owners want they want lol. Literally all it gives gamers is games. What nonsense.

The whole 1 or 2 years isn't set in stone man. Just think about it. If MS's goal is to reach as many gamers as possible on GP, do you think they will target 5% of the pc gamers that currently have something like a RTX2080? Of course not, they will target the mainstream gaming pc's, which is currently a GTX1060. The 1 or 2 years will probably depends on how fast pc gamers will upgrade. That could be 1 year, but could also be 3 years if pc gamers don't feel the need to upgrade at all. 

And again, we don't know what Sony will launch with and how their early games will push the hardware. We only know that their games will be designed with the ps5 as the base platform.



Or it could be six months. At least you’re finally admitting that you have no idea how any of this will play out.



goopy20 said:
sales2099 said:

You still act like GP is a feature like Kinect (absurd) that takes away from its 14 studios making games.....when the whole point is that they give access to all of MSs games. It in no way detracts from what gamers want nor what games MS is making. 

You made assumptions first....not nice when someone swings the pendulum back at you. Sony has every reason to not give you their best at launch, nor will they make the most of the hardware. Where as I know I’m getting the best at launch. 
Sony unveiled the font and logo...with no console reveal and no games. MS showed the Series X and Hellblade 2. So ya...I have every reason to think Sony is full of themselves and expect you to get excited over the brand alone. Over a font and logo. Cmon.

You want pros of buying a Series X? Fine, though you don’t have to agree you just acknowledge that there are people that my points apply to. 

They want the custom Halo edition console (me). They want the best versions of 1st party games because they don’t want to settle for less. They want the latest console purely as an early tech adopter. They want the most power (which they will get from 3rd party and 1st party for 90% of the gen). 

There you go. Remember not all gamers are early adopters. But thank you again for reminding everyone just how bad Sony’s launches are and making me by comparison extremely excited to see what a hungry MS can do :)

Game pass is meant to reach as many players as possible and all of MS's exclusives will be on GP from day one. What does that tell you about the hardware they're targeting with their exclusives?

Your whole defense is based on the assumption that Sony will have crappy exclusives at launch, instead of what MS is bringing to the table. If you do care about having the most powerful console, then how come you're fine with them not even trying to push it with all this cross gen and game pass crap? 

MSs games are designed for PC and then are scaled down accordingly. Pc specs that are above PS5 I’m fairly certain. Then Xbox Series x, Lockhart, Xbox X, and Xbox 1. That tells me that no matter what I pick to play the exclusives I will get the best version possible. Thats the advantage of MS being a PC developer now where as Sony has weak presence. 

Game Pass just dictates how I access and pay for my games. It is not the same category as hardware. Cmon, we going in circles.... GP has zero impact on specs. None. 

I know I’m getting the best for Xbox at launch and there is a lot of evidence that Sony doesn’t care about its launch offerings and instead wants you to buy PlayStation...because it’s Playstation. “Here’s our logo and font! No console reveal or games but we expect you to get excited!!!”.....ya I’ll stick with what MS is doing thank you very much. 

Last edited by sales2099 - 4 days ago

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eva01beserk said:
sales2099 said:

“Not even trying”...so overall we all can admit that neither company makes the most use at launch. Making the entire argument against Xbox null and void. Thank you. 

Maybe they would have been better cross gen if Sony spent less time “pushing the consoles ability” (lol) and focus more on quality control. Perspectives work both ways  ;)

To you is null and void as you refuse to accept anything painting Xbox in the slightest bad light.

What we can admit is that at the beginning devs are still getting used to the hardware. They might not even know themselves what tricks they can pull off. Or how to get around certain inconveniences. Or if something works good some improvements and make it great. But at the moment they are using what they have at the fullest.

For thouse using pc as a metric. Consider the bios updates on cards. Still the same cards but what ever update they manufacture did tends to remove glitches, increases performance and what ever else. Games already made are already done can't do much but games in development will make better use of the new tools provided. So at both points in time devs where using the most of the hardware .

Consider when the xbox one freed up one of the CPU cores recerved for background operations. Games after that where better at no fault of the devs. 

Nice deflection without actually countering the point ;) It’s less defending Xbox being in a bad light and more combating PS fan smugness. Fyi 

For all that talking you still came to the same conclusion: both Sony and MS can’t make 100% use of a system at launch. Your argument about Xbox cross gen still null and void. 

Last edited by sales2099 - 4 days ago

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