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MS: 1st party Xbox games will be cross-gen for "next year, two years"

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goopy20 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

I agree Infamous:SS and Killzone looked fantastic, but with vastly scaled back visuals I do believe games like them can work on PS3.

I think people forget how many ambitious games last gen had. Suddenly they cant handle open world action games and linear shooters?

You should see Assassin's Creed, Red Faction Guerilla, Bioshock games, etc. PS3 can handle pretty impressive stuff.

I completed both of those games you mentioned, there was nothing remarkable about them beyond visual polish.

If that's true then how come Ubisoft released 2 AC games in 2014 on the exact same day? AC Unity for ps4/XBO and AC Rogue for ps3/360. It's simply because AC Unity used a radically upgraded version of the game engine for Unity, which allowed for things like hundreds of NPCs on screen. Things that weren't possible to port to ps3/360.                                                                                                                                                                                                             

Like I said, not everything is scalable and can be ported. I mean why do you think Cyberpunk is not getting a release on Switch, even though they did port the Witcher 3?

It seemed like AC Unity was barely possible on the consoles they made it for. It ran like trash, had jarring pop in and the gameplay was basically the same.

The large crowds were neat, I assume not possible on last gen, but had no real significance to gameplay. I say this as someone who completed both games you mentioned.

I am simply suggesting Ubisoft could have made a version of AC Unity on 7th gen and capture the core gameplay just fine. The large crowds were really aesthetic.

AC Unity was actually a smaller scale game than previous entries. They put more detail inside buildings, but created a smaller world.



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goopy20 said:
yvanjean said:

Huge difference between Enhanced games and full consoles optimization. Halo Infinite and next Forza game aren't enhanced for the XSX, these game will simply be ported and available on older consoles. Halo & Forza team have known the final specs for XSX for a long time and these two games will be the center piece of showcasing what XSX can do. Let assume the 12 TF XSX and 9.2 TF PS5 rumors are true resulting in 30% increase power. Even if these game don't take advantage of XSX full consoles optimization, the game will still be way better then last gen and anything that could of been done on PS5 with 30% less power. 

Just look at optimization done for the Xbox one X, once you give the development team a chance to show what their game can do on better hardware they will push the new hardware in order to better showcase their game. Hence, why almost every game on Xbox one X received a patch to take advantage of the Xbox one X new hardware and not simply console enhanced. 

You really think that Microsoft first party studios are building next gen games to the specs of the OG Xbox and these games will be system enhanced by the XSX. Just look at the demo of Hellblade 2, the game is built for taking full advantage of XSX. Yet, it will be ported to the older consoles. 

Here is what you guys are missing Sony next gen games aren't coming to PS4 and PS4 Pro not due to hardware limitation but because Sony wants to push sell of PS5 hardware. 

Remind me again, what's the difference between a X1X patched game and an enhanced version? Maybe I'm wrong but isn't Forza Horizon 4 identical on XBX1, except that you can play it in 4k, or in performance mode at 60fps? 

With these next gen consoles it will be different as I'm sure not all games will be targeting native 4k and 60fps. Instead, we will probably see 1080p (or 1440p) and a locked 30fps in most cases. If those games also will have to run on Xone, it will simply limit the developers ambition and scope for those games. Of course Sony wants everyone to move on the ps5, but what's wrong with that? IMO the first wave of cross gen titles always kinda suck compared to the games that take a full leap to the next gen. GTA5 might be an exception here and is still be an amazing game, but it sure is a shame that they didn't release a GTA game this gen that was build from the ground up around current gen hardware. But at least GTA6 will likely skip current gen consoles.

I was referring to hardware enhanced vs patch enhanced games. 
Some backward compatible games can have noticeable benefits even without a patch on both the Xbox one & Xbox one X:

*better load time
*Less jaggers and freezing
*improved performance
*better frame rate if the game features unlock frame rate.
*texture filtering

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYuvL6bO04Q


Patched enhanced games get much more improvement:
For example Forza 4: 4k, HDR, 30/60FPS; An option for enhanced visuals at 30 FPS or 60 FPS

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Xbox_One_X_enhanced_games



Tommy Jean, CPA, CGA

Mr Puggsly said:
goopy20 said:

If that's true then how come Ubisoft released 2 AC games in 2014 on the exact same day? AC Unity for ps4/XBO and AC Rogue for ps3/360. It's simply because AC Unity used a radically upgraded version of the game engine for Unity, which allowed for things like hundreds of NPCs on screen. Things that weren't possible to port to ps3/360.                                                                                                                                                                                                             

Like I said, not everything is scalable and can be ported. I mean why do you think Cyberpunk is not getting a release on Switch, even though they did port the Witcher 3?

It seemed like AC Unity was barely possible on the consoles they made it for. It ran like trash, had jarring pop in and the gameplay was basically the same.

The large crowds were neat, I assume not possible on last gen, but had no real significance to gameplay. I say this as someone who completed both games you mentioned.

I am simply suggesting Ubisoft could have made a version of AC Unity on 7th gen and capture the core gameplay just fine. The large crowds were really aesthetic.

AC Unity was actually a smaller scale game than previous entries. They put more detail inside buildings, but created a smaller world.

It's true that AC Unity wasn't great, had a lot of technical problems and the crowds didn't add much to the game. But that still doesn't change the fact that they chose to make two different games in order to support ps3/360 and make the full next gen leap to ps4/Xone with Unity. And like I said, why do you think there isn't going to be a Cyberpunk port for the Switch, when they did port the Witcher 3?  



Mr Puggsly said:
goopy20 said:

If that's true then how come Ubisoft released 2 AC games in 2014 on the exact same day? AC Unity for ps4/XBO and AC Rogue for ps3/360. It's simply because AC Unity used a radically upgraded version of the game engine for Unity, which allowed for things like hundreds of NPCs on screen. Things that weren't possible to port to ps3/360.                                                                                                                                                                                                             

Like I said, not everything is scalable and can be ported. I mean why do you think Cyberpunk is not getting a release on Switch, even though they did port the Witcher 3?

It seemed like AC Unity was barely possible on the consoles they made it for. It ran like trash, had jarring pop in and the gameplay was basically the same.

The large crowds were neat, I assume not possible on last gen, but had no real significance to gameplay. I say this as someone who completed both games you mentioned.

I am simply suggesting Ubisoft could have made a version of AC Unity on 7th gen and capture the core gameplay just fine. The large crowds were really aesthetic.

AC Unity was actually a smaller scale game than previous entries. They put more detail inside buildings, but created a smaller world.

You can't be serious, PS4 and Xbox One CPU's could barely handle these huge crowds with drops to 15 fps and you expected PS3 version?

Please just stop, some games are just not possible on older consoles without drastically changing the game.



goopy20 said:

With these next gen consoles it will be different as I'm sure not all games will be targeting native 4k and 60fps. Instead, we will probably see 1080p (or 1440p) and a locked 30fps in most cases. If those games also will have to run on Xone, it will simply limit the developers ambition and scope for those games. Of course Sony wants everyone to move on the ps5, but what's wrong with that? IMO the first wave of cross gen titles always kinda suck compared to the games that take a full leap to the next gen. GTA5 might be an exception here and is still be an amazing game, but it sure is a shame that they didn't release a GTA game this gen that was build from the ground up around current gen hardware. But at least GTA6 will likely skip current gen consoles.

I don't know where you guys are getting your information but game development is done on X86 infrastructure and are initially built on some of the best high end PC with top of the line specs. The developers then scale back some of the graphic and cap performance in order to have the game run on console specs and maximize what can be achieve with the console hardware limitation. The game built from the grounds up for a specific consoles can benefit from some minor improvement because the console limitation were always considered during development but there a limit on how much you can push the hardware. Just like Microsoft "secret sauce" never really pan out on the OG Xbox. At the end of day you limited by GPU, CPU and Rams. 

Well there many scenario that I can think of why it's wrong to force someone to move to next gen:

1. Imagine someone just upgrade to PS4 Pro or Xbox One X, they just made an investment and don't want to purchase a new console right away.
2. You could simply can't afford to make the switch and will be left out. You could not have the money or be younger and parent won't purchase a new console.
3. What if all you have in your house is a bunch of 1080P TV and you don't have any TV or Screen that can take advantage of the next gen consoles.
4. Microsoft is talking about forward compatible games VS Sony's Cross Gen play. If you were to buy Halo on Microsoft consoles, you now own it on all the consoles Vs Sony's Cross gen play that will allow PS4 and PS5 to play online together. But, lets say you bought Last of Us 2 on PS4, you would have to purchase the PS5 version when Sony release the new consoles. (Lot's of rumors so let's just hope that Sony is forced to match Microsoft forward compatible)

At the end of the day it's better to simply have more option, it's also better to wait a few years before committing to a new consoles, you will get more exclusives & can expect price drop on older games and new consoles.  Microsoft solution is actually very consumer friendly. Microsoft unlike Sony as a huge presence on PC, launch their Xcloud service and benefit from subscription service like Xbox live and Gamepass. They benefits regardless where you play. Sony on the other made huge financial investment on the PS5 and doesn't have all of the other source of revenues like Microsoft. During transition consumers will stop or have less incentive to buying games and console for PS4 because they know that there better version on PS5 and because of the smaller PS5 install base, it's harder to recoup the invest made to make PS5 exclusive. Slow transition for Sony would be very bad, they lost Billions of dollar on the start of PS3 and they surely don't want history to repeat itself. Unfortunately for Sony the competition is stronger this time around and doesn't play by their rules. 

Last edited by yvanjean - on 13 January 2020

Tommy Jean, CPA, CGA

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yvanjean said:
goopy20 said:

With these next gen consoles it will be different as I'm sure not all games will be targeting native 4k and 60fps. Instead, we will probably see 1080p (or 1440p) and a locked 30fps in most cases. If those games also will have to run on Xone, it will simply limit the developers ambition and scope for those games. Of course Sony wants everyone to move on the ps5, but what's wrong with that? IMO the first wave of cross gen titles always kinda suck compared to the games that take a full leap to the next gen. GTA5 might be an exception here and is still be an amazing game, but it sure is a shame that they didn't release a GTA game this gen that was build from the ground up around current gen hardware. But at least GTA6 will likely skip current gen consoles.

I don't know where you guys are getting your information but game development is done on X86 infrastructure and are initially built on some of the best high end PC with top of the line specs. The developers then scale back some of the graphic and cap performance in order to have the game run on console specs and maximize what can be achieve with the console hardware limitation. The game built from the grounds up for a specific consoles can benefit from some minor improvement because the console limitation were always considered during development but there a limit on how much you can push the hardware. Just like Microsoft "secret sauce" never really pan out on the OG Xbox. At the end of day you limited by GPU, CPU and Rams. 

Well there many scenario that I can think of why it's wrong to force someone to move to next gen:

1. Imagine someone just upgrade to PS4 Pro or Xbox One X, they just made an investment and don't want to purchase a new console right away.
2. You could simply can't afford to make the switch and will be left out. You could not have the money or be younger and parent won't purchase a new console.
3. What if all you have in your house is a bunch of 1080P TV and you don't have any TV or Screen that can take advantage of the next gen consoles.
4. Microsoft is talking about forward compatible games VS Sony's Cross Gen play. If you were to buy Halo on Microsoft consoles, you now own it on all the consoles Vs Sony's Cross gen play that will allow PS4 and PS5 to play online together. But, lets say you bought Last of Us 2 on PS4, you would have to purchase the PS5 version when Sony release the new consoles. (Lot's of rumors so let's just hope that Sony is forced to match Microsoft forward compatible)

At the end of the day it's better to simply have more option, it's also better to wait a few years before committing to a new consoles, you will get more exclusives & can expect price drop on older games and new consoles.  Microsoft solution is actually very consumer friendly. Microsoft unlike Sony as a huge presence on PC, launch their Xcloud service and benefit from subscription service like Xbox live and Gamepass. They benefits regardless where you play. Sony on the other made huge financial investment on the PS5 and doesn't have all of the other source of revenues like Microsoft. During transition consumers will stop or have less incentive to buying games and console for PS4 because they know that there better version on PS5 and because of the smaller PS5 install base, it's harder to recoup the invest made to make PS5 exclusive. Slow transition for Sony would be very bad, they lost Billions of dollar on the start of PS3 and they surely don't want history to repeat itself. Unfortunately for Sony the competition is stronger this time around and doesn't play by their rules. 

I agree that it sucks if you just bought a XB1X or ps4 pro, but nobody can force anyone to buy a next gen console. If you can't afford it, then just wait a few years till the prices drop. But there are plenty of people who can't wait to give MS or Sony their money and buy a next gen console to play next gen games. And no, next gen games don't mean the exact same games we are playing now but just in a higher resolution and fps. I want to see more complex level design, better ai, physics and a boost in overall graphical fidelity with shiny raytracing on top. With current gen they couldn't really deliver on their promise because of the crappy jaguar cpu, but the specs of these next gen consoles are pretty damn impressive. Not saying this will be possible on next gen consoles but it sure as hell will not, if it had to run on 10 year old consoles as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecerIIClbMA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnuWG2I2QCY

Last edited by goopy20 - on 13 January 2020

DonFerrari said:
From their previous interviews that was expected and is pretty reasonable and common, still I expect Sony to fast jump to next gen.

Sony's appoach is no different to MS's when you think about it.

Santa Monica, Naughty Dog, Sucker Punch etc all won't have games ready for PS5 until years after launch (Aside from there ports) Same with MS, once all there 1st batch of games come out from there internal studios, it will take atleast 2 years for there 2nd batch of games to release and thats when the Series X is built in mind. Same goes for Sony's studios who recently had games released.

Last edited by Azzanation - on 13 January 2020

goopy20 said:

I agree that it sucks if you just bought a XB1X or ps4 pro, but nobody can force anyone to buy a next gen console. If you can't afford it, then just wait a few years till the prices drop. But there are plenty of people who can't wait to give MS or Sony their money and buy a next gen console to play next gen games. And no, next gen games don't mean the exact same games we are playing now but just in a higher resolution and fps. I want to see more complex level design, better ai, physics and a boost in overall graphical fidelity with shiny raytracing on top. With current gen they couldn't really deliver on their promise because of the crappy jaguar cpu, but the specs of these next gen consoles are pretty damn impressive. Not saying this will be possible on next gen consoles but it sure as hell will not, if it had to run on 10 year old consoles as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecerIIClbMA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnuWG2I2QCY

At the end of the day PS4 and PS5 are using X86 infrastructure to make game. There are so many people on the thread that believe all of Sony PS5 exclusive could not be ported to Ps4/PS4 Pro. I believe that to be false, beside you probably won't see true next exclusive for a few years. Sony keep touting an unannounced feature, remains to be seen how game changing that features is going to be! 

Well I doubt you will see much of it for launch title. I can't wait to see if what they did with Halo infinite, they have a lot to prove since it's coming from the same studio that gave us the mediocre Halo 5 single player. How much does Complex Ai and level Design come from hardware improvement vs Development team getting better at their craft? Probably a mix of both.  

Take the tech demo you just shown and scale back the effect, graphic and performance.... and both demo could run on a PS4 & Xbox one. 




Tommy Jean, CPA, CGA

yvanjean said:
HollyGamer said:

We are not talking about backward compatibility ,both consoles already confirmed to have backward compatibility and will run games from old gen consoles with enhanced graphic, resolution and frame rates.  Also backward compatibility is another proof that Microsoft strategy with cross gen games is useless, because Xbox series X can already play Xbox One games without the need of Xbox series X version. 

PS4 exclusives looks better than high end PC because there is no high end PC exclusives developed for high end GPU!!!  If there is Nvidia 2080 TI exclusives then you have right to speak.

All games developed on PC until now are developed based on Xbox One original spec  from 2013 with Jaguar CPU and 1.3 teraflop. All modern games that came as multiplatform games are developed with the lowest spec  . The reason is , to make developer easy to develop and ported to high end PC and to run on mid gen refresh consoles (PS4 pro/X). High end PC like 2080 TI and mid gen refresh consoles will just scale up the games based on what old gen look like.

That's why high end PC is not representative for next gen, not because the hardware capability but because there is no exclusives games that develop to use and utilize the benefit of next gen spec on high end PC. The same thing is happening for Xbox X. All games will be just like  mid gen refresh consoles (Xbox One X /PS4 pro. Nothing new just old Xbox One games run at better frame rates , better resolution with the same graphic from Xbox One old era.   

Even if most PS5 first exclusive won't be ready (which i doubt that ) Sony still have 2 or three games prepared for PS5 exclusives from their first party  that will make PS5 more valuable to most gamers who already own Xbox. Hell even without games PS5 is a big names on US and the rest of the world and top brand name. PS5 will do just more than fine even without single games . We are talking about Xbox brand as a consoles here where it's existent is questionable to the rest of the world , hell even to US.  Xbox need exclusives to sell their console to compete with PS5. Or do you think the leser brand  like Xbox brand already become arrogant and under estimate PS5 brand as the champion ? 

 

It's clear that you know nothing about game development, it would be like asking my barber for help with tax issues. 

This site is called VGchartz, yet you seem unaware that Xbox been keeping up to the PS4 in the US. 28 million PS4 to 24.4 Xbox one.... yet somehow the Xbox brand is irrelevant even in the US.   

You've clearly never bothered with informing yourself with Video games history, the fall of Sony with PS3, rise and fall of Nintendo (Wii, WiiU & Switch). 

Microsoft pretty much gave last generation to Sony with Don Matrix weird marketing and the way they they wanted to have the Xbox Brand focus on being a multi media console. 

We about to have the start to a new generation yet your calling PS5 the champion without them having done anything.

It's clear with your statement that you have no ideas what been happening outside your Sony eco system. In order for Sony to obtain the same amount of success they would have to recreate the same environment that they had for the start of the PS4 era. That's simply not the case, Sony with the start of the Ps5 has to deal with:
*A Nintendo that is enjoying current success with Switch.
*A microsoft that has made huge invest in studios acquisition, wants to lead the industry in term of power and offer a Subscription service that Sony doesn't yet have an answer to with Gamepass. 
*There is also the launch of cloud service, with Google Stadia and Microsoft Xcloud.

Sony success is due to having sold the most console to the casual gamers. The same casual gamers that made Xbox 360 the market leader for the most part of the previous generation. You are aware that in order for Sony PS5 to be the market leader they need to have sold the most console. Also, Sony has the current market leader is the one company that stand to lose the most if the competition manage to grow their own install base compare to last generation.

Sony hasn't won anything yet when it comes to next generation and part of what you don't like with Microsoft or whatever the competition to PS5 is doing will actually appeal greatly to the casual market that picked up a PS4 last generation. Service like gamepass and being able to continues using older consoles mean alot more to this crowd then any Sony exclusives. 

Probably i am not but many expert from Digital Foundry already said this



Mr Puggsly said:
HollyGamer said:

LOL no 

The second bold, yes they can run but  with old game design concept. New engine and new game design like openworld, simulation and hundred NPC will not able to run well.  Even if they can, it hampering the possibility great graphic of the games that run on PS4/Xbox One (just look at Titanfall and Watchdogs look crap thanks to cross gen games) .

Lol yeah

What is old game design concept?

Infamous:SS and Killzone didnt have openworld's with hundreds of NPCs.

Its actually more valid to say PS3 and 360 couldnt handle something like Dead Rising 3 and 4. That actually was open world with tons of NPCs.

Titanfall was a terribly optimized game, period. It didnt hold 60 fps and it was 768p I think with underwhelming graphics. Halo MCC looks better with 360 assets and effects. Also does a better job at resolution and performance.

Watchdogs actually looked pretty good compared to many other early 8th gen games. Did you actually play a 7th gen version? They're playable but look and run awful.

Most importantly, you're neglecting Battlefield 4 and Hardline. Those games still look great inspite of beimg multiplat.

CoD AW also looked great. It was the last time that series held 60 fps well on a base X1 and PS4.

Then there was Shadow or Mordor. 8th gen was the lead and looked great for the time. Meanwhile 7th gen got trash ports.

John Lineman from Digital Foundry has spoken about how future games "design "  will be held back, hampered and limit by current gen tech if games design for cross gen.  

Many games from last gen already prove this, many games came as cross gen games look bad event on PC and PS4/Xbox One thanks to old hardware limit the potential.

games like Watchdog, Titanfall etc.

Battlefield 4 was design using PC not PS3 nor Xbox 360. If games were design using Xbox One then Xbox series X will just look plain ugly with just better resolution and better frame rates . If games are designed using Xbox series X and then  scaling down will probably  better instead using Xbox One as standard.  But still some aspect on Xbox Series X will still be held down due to parity on game design across  Xbox platform. 

That's why New 3DS games has games has that cannot playable on old 3DS hardware , or perhaps PC has certain minimum requirement on it, because the games was build upun new foundation and new hardware. You can scale down games but you cannot scale up game design based on low spec machine.  

Last edited by HollyGamer - on 13 January 2020