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Speculation - 4800H cpu is what next gen consoles will have.

Forums - Gaming Discussion - Speculation - 4800H cpu is what next gen consoles will have.

Do you think this will be the case?

Yeah, think so. 8 72.73%
 
Nah, not happending. 3 27.27%
 
Total:11
JEMC said:
I know that both consoles will have an 8-core CPU, but will it really use SMT and have 16 threads? Given the huge performance increase both consoles would have just from going from Jaguar to Zen2, the extra threads may not be needed, maybe even making development a tad more easier.

In any case, and whether they go with and 8/8 or an 8/16 design, I agree that this chip could be very similar to the one they'll use.

Sony's corporate release specifies it is a 8 core, 16 thread Zen2 CPU.

<Hardware overview>

● Console game console

・ Equipped with custom SSD for ultra-high-speed access


   -AMD   custom chip mounted -CPU: x86-64-AMD Ryzen ™ “Zen2”, 8 cores / 16 threads
   -GPU: AMD Radeon ™ RDNA (Radeon DNA) -based graphics engine

・ A unit dedicated to 3D audio processing
 ・ Supports up to 8K resolution output in games
 ・ Designed for achieving compatibility with PlayStation®4 titles
 ・ PlayStation®VR compatible

● Controller

-Equipped with haptic technology-
 Adopts an adaptive trigger that makes the L2 and R2 buttons feel resistant

● Physical media

・ Ultra HD Blu-ray
 ・ Capacity as a game disc is 100GB

It's japanese, so that's google translated. 

https://www.sie.com/corporate/release/2019/191008.html



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Most likely, yeah. I doubt they'll be using desktop Zen 2 CPU's, would take up too much room on the silicon wouldn't they? I was under the impression that in order to hit the reported 56 CU's Xbox Series X will have, with the reported 405mm squared SoC, that there isn't enough room for a desktop Zen 2 CPU on the silicon. So a smaller, mobile Zen 2 CPU makes alot of sense. Will still be a massive upgrade over Jaguar. 8 more threads, considerable clock rate increase (if the 3.2 ghz rumor is true), and a huge IPC increase, all adds up to like 4x CPU improvement or more I believe. 

Last edited by shikamaru317 - on 08 January 2020

Intrinsic said:
JEMC said:
I know that both consoles will have an 8-core CPU, but will it really use SMT and have 16 threads? Given the huge performance increase both consoles would have just from going from Jaguar to Zen2, the extra threads may not be needed, maybe even making development a tad more easier.

In any case, and whether they go with and 8/8 or an 8/16 design, I agree that this chip could be very similar to the one they'll use.

Everything thus far suggests that its an 8/16 CPU. Unless the sample chips being tested over the last year ae all for naught. We even have sample chips that were tested with the exact cache allotment seen in this 4800H CPU but paired with a beefier and unknown GPU. But even if  SMT is cut, that feature only adds about 30% to overall CPU performance anyways.

Suggested or rumored doesn't really matter in the end, specially with early samples that can use specifications that aren't final. In any case, we got he answer that this is the case:

Barkley said:
JEMC said:
I know that both consoles will have an 8-core CPU, but will it really use SMT and have 16 threads? Given the huge performance increase both consoles would have just from going from Jaguar to Zen2, the extra threads may not be needed, maybe even making development a tad more easier.

In any case, and whether they go with and 8/8 or an 8/16 design, I agree that this chip could be very similar to the one they'll use.

Sony's corporate release specifies it is a 8 core, 16 thread Zen2 CPU.

● Console game console

・ Equipped with custom SSD for ultra-high-speed access


   -AMD   custom chip mounted -CPU: x86-64-AMD Ryzen ™ “Zen2”, 8 cores / 16 threads
   -GPU: AMD Radeon ™ RDNA (Radeon DNA) -based graphics engine

・ A unit dedicated to 3D audio processing
 ・ Supports up to 8K resolution output in games
 ・ Designed for achieving compatibility with PlayStation®4 titles
 ・ PlayStation®VR compatible

● Controller

-Equipped with haptic technology-
 Adopts an adaptive trigger that makes the L2 and R2 buttons feel resistant

● Physical media

・ Ultra HD Blu-ray
 ・ Capacity as a game disc is 100GB

It's japanese, so that's google translated. 

https://www.sie.com/corporate/release/2019/191008.html

Well, that definitely answers my question. Thanks you for sharing.



Please excuse my bad English.

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JRPGfan said:
trunkswd said:
How much does that CPU cost? Price will obviously drop a bit by the time the Xbox Series X and PS5 launch, and Microsoft and Sony buying them in the millions will get a discount.

Their the brand new thing, and the best performance in laptop possible atm.
And theres 799$ laptops comeing with Radeon RX 5600M GPUs (GTX 1660 Ti mobile, competitor).

Theres no "if you buy them bulk direction from amd, they cost such and such" info anywhere I can find.

So Im not sure, but I think they make alot of sense for a console.
I dont think their as expensive as people here imagine them to be.

The better we can get for a reasonable cost the better.



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Don't forget the console APUs will probably cut L3 cache at least in half to save some ~ 20 mm2 in the die. That alone will weight down somewhat significantly on the IPC. So even if the consoles were to have a CPU base clock similar to the 4800H, they wouldn't perform as well.

And since they'll also have a much looser binning, these clocks seem unlikely to be achieved in a 35 - 45 W TDP.






 

 

 

 

 

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JRPGfan said:
Cerebralbore101 said:

How does it stack up vs a 2700X in gaming? How about a 3600 in gaming? I'm worried that by the time late 2020 rolls around this mobile chip will be equal to a $150-$200 desktop CPU. A.K.A. mid to low end weakness. 

A ryzen 5 3600 does ~19,062
A ryzen 7 2700x does ~20,100

A 4800H would be faster than either of these, by a small amount.

JRPGfan said:

"I'd really like to see how this chip stacks up to 3600X and 3700X."

Giveing what we know, I attempted to do that for you :)

Amd 3700x = ~23,700
i7 - 9700k = ~18,650

going by the picture amd showed, that should put this 4800H cpu around ~20,600.
(if im not failing at the math of it)

source for numbers:  https://benchmarks.ul.com/hardware/cpu/Intel+Core+i7-9700K+Processor+review

So it would be 2.4% better than a 2700X, which is $217 right now on Amazon. Or around 8% better than a 3600. (According to these benchmarks that is. Real life scenarios could be very different.) IMO a 2600X is entry level, and anything worse than that is basically "WHY WOULD YOU BUILD A PC WITH THIS????" quality. On the GPU side, I would consider anything below a 1650S to be a bad GPU (At least if you bought it right now. IMO 580 8GB VRAM was good a year ago.) 

Anyway that puts the 4800H right around the upper midrange territory by today's standards in my opinion. By the time late 2020 rolls around that could be mid range. Or not. I don't know everything about CPUs yet. Anyway, it kind of worries me. I don't want a repeat of the base model PS4 and XB1, which launched as mid range machines. 

Edit: Again, this is if you built a brand PC with these parts today. IMO a $500 PC build is a total waste of money, and people really should spend enough to hit at least 60 FPS 1080p on a demanding game like Witcher 3 or Cyberpunk. Somebody with a PC they put together a few years ago is different. So I'm not trying to rag on anybody's old rig here. 

Last edited by Cerebralbore101 - on 08 January 2020

The sentence below is false. 
The sentence above is true. 

DonFerrari said:
Don't think they are going for a beefy CPU. They rather put the budget on GPU and RAM.

Whilst the 4800H is beefy for a notebook, it's mid-range on the PC... And depending on clocks, maybe even low-end.

JRPGfan said:

Im not sure how big the chip is, or how much the iGPU portion takes up.
But Im sure once you cut cache abit, these 8 cores are probably not too big, or costly to have in a console.

AMD typically reserves up to 50% of the APU for the Graphics, that has been their design philosophy since they started making APU's with their Fusion initiative.

JRPGfan said:

There pretty energy effecient, and probably not overly expensive (im sure you ll see these in laptops that go as low as 600$).
With BoM on laptops being higher than consoles (overall) I dont see why you couldnt use this cpu in a console.

Probably energy efficient for an AMD mobile part... AMD has never had notebook CPU's with acceptable idle power, which isn't an issue for consoles or PC of course.
Intel however is still a step ahead of AMD in this aspect.

Intrinsic said:

The cache has already been cut down from the equivalent desktop part; basically its been quartered, from 32Mb down to 8MB. I

The hit to cache shouldn't have a corresponding hit to performance, the IMC and uncore is on die which will help massively with reducing latency, which is a big deviation from Zen on desktop.
With consoles also using the APU approach, I would expect to see similar for next-gen consoles.

Intrinsic said:

But even if  SMT is cut, that feature only adds about 30% to overall CPU performance anyways.

Sometimes it even reduces performance.

In saying that... SMT is mostly to ensure that the full CPU pipeline is being utilized fully rather than having parts of it idle.

JRPGfan said:

"Next-gen APUs will be in the 300mm2-405mm2 range, up from the 300mm2-360mm2 range of the current-gen chips. "

After Xbox showed off the photo of the chip, people have estimated it to be upwards of 420mm^2.
Supposedly its rumored to have 56 CU's (compute units) (3584 shaders) in the GPU portion.

Sony is only useing 36 CU's but running at higher speeds (smaller chip to save costs), downsize is its not as power effecient to do this.
Sony chip might be like ~270-280mm^2.

Higher clockspeeds but with a smaller chip doesn't mean it will be cheaper to produce.
Sometimes the opposite is true... Because you reach a point where the majority of chips won't hit a certain clockspeed without significant increases in voltage which then results in an acceleration of electromigration.

It's a balancing act.



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JEMC said:
I know that both consoles will have an 8-core CPU, but will it really use SMT and have 16 threads? Given the huge performance increase both consoles would have just from going from Jaguar to Zen2, the extra threads may not be needed, maybe even making development a tad more easier.

In any case, and whether they go with and 8/8 or an 8/16 design, I agree that this chip could be very similar to the one they'll use.

Sony Computer Entertainment as far as i know already confirmed on their official Japanese websites. They clearly said it will have 16 thread from the 8 core Zen 2. But the clock speed is still not yet clarified. 



JRPGfan said:

So.... the 4800H is a 45w TPD part, that probably owes 10w of that TPD or so to the buildt in, GPU.
Its a 8core/16thread cpu with a base of 2.9GHz and a boost clock of 4,2GHz.

I can imagine next consoles to spend ~35watts of their power budget, on the CPU.
Which I believe a 4800H would be around.

So what does this all mean?
Well console CPUs are about to get pretty beefy.

Aparently one of these 4800H can beat a stock i7 - 9700k in firestrike physics (cpu) bench.

If you believe on flute benchmark that  supposed to be a PS5 prototype benchmark , it mentioned that it has a performance of Zen 1. Which is equal to ryzen 3700 with cut down cache  and run at  lower clock speed. I think we will get a cut down version of Ryzen 3700 or a mild modified version on it. It will be cheaper and will have better size to fit on an apu and to let more space  for more CU GPU on reasonable lower yield. 

But i am still not convinced that PS5 will have 9.2 teraflop GPU from 36 CU . It will have temperature problem and eat a lot of power. They probably will have more CU but run at mild clock speed to achieve 10 teraflop of performance. 

So i believe this is the CPU we will have or perhaps PS5 will have the same performance more or less with this one. 



Pemalite said:
DonFerrari said:
Don't think they are going for a beefy CPU. They rather put the budget on GPU and RAM.

Whilst the 4800H is beefy for a notebook, it's mid-range on the PC... And depending on clocks, maybe even low-end.

JRPGfan said:

Im not sure how big the chip is, or how much the iGPU portion takes up.
But Im sure once you cut cache abit, these 8 cores are probably not too big, or costly to have in a console.

AMD typically reserves up to 50% of the APU for the Graphics, that has been their design philosophy since they started making APU's with their Fusion initiative.

JRPGfan said:

There pretty energy effecient, and probably not overly expensive (im sure you ll see these in laptops that go as low as 600$).
With BoM on laptops being higher than consoles (overall) I dont see why you couldnt use this cpu in a console.

Probably energy efficient for an AMD mobile part... AMD has never had notebook CPU's with acceptable idle power, which isn't an issue for consoles or PC of course.
Intel however is still a step ahead of AMD in this aspect.

Intrinsic said:

The cache has already been cut down from the equivalent desktop part; basically its been quartered, from 32Mb down to 8MB. I

The hit to cache shouldn't have a corresponding hit to performance, the IMC and uncore is on die which will help massively with reducing latency, which is a big deviation from Zen on desktop.
With consoles also using the APU approach, I would expect to see similar for next-gen consoles.

Intrinsic said:

But even if  SMT is cut, that feature only adds about 30% to overall CPU performance anyways.

Sometimes it even reduces performance.

In saying that... SMT is mostly to ensure that the full CPU pipeline is being utilized fully rather than having parts of it idle.

JRPGfan said:

"Next-gen APUs will be in the 300mm2-405mm2 range, up from the 300mm2-360mm2 range of the current-gen chips. "

After Xbox showed off the photo of the chip, people have estimated it to be upwards of 420mm^2.
Supposedly its rumored to have 56 CU's (compute units) (3584 shaders) in the GPU portion.

Sony is only useing 36 CU's but running at higher speeds (smaller chip to save costs), downsize is its not as power effecient to do this.
Sony chip might be like ~270-280mm^2.

Higher clockspeeds but with a smaller chip doesn't mean it will be cheaper to produce.
Sometimes the opposite is true... Because you reach a point where the majority of chips won't hit a certain clockspeed without significant increases in voltage which then results in an acceleration of electromigration.

It's a balancing act.


Mass quote of text.... Im not sure how to cut out parts when you multiquote so the entire thing just goes with.

"Probably energy efficient for an AMD mobile part... AMD has never had notebook CPU's with acceptable idle power, which isn't an issue for consoles or PC of course.Intel however is still a step ahead of AMD in this aspect." - Permalite


^ a by-product of the infinity fabric design they choose.   (race to idle, wasnt something AMD was good at)

However they are aware of it, and have worked at it.
Supposedly they "fixed" this issue (alot of it is apparently how fast/slow it enters/exits idle/turbo, which is now x5 faster):
That and 20%+ lower soc powerdraw (reduced how low things can go and funktion), ontop of 2x power effeciency (mostly from 7nm node)...

This chip is gonna change AMD in the laptop scene imo.
Its gonna be competitive when it comes to battery life too.

We need to wait a few months to see it in hands of reviewers, but I believe the idle power draw wont be a issue.


Edit:

Also Remember this for a console part (plugged in).... that really doesnt have any barring on Xbox Series X or Playstation 5.
However I remember there was some talk about next gen consoles being alot more "green" in that idle power / sleep modes, would be drastically improved.

Also with the 3000U series, AMD idle power wasnt so bad (they improved it a decent bit, with the 3000 series).
Something like the ThinkPad X395, with a 3700U has 14,5+ hours battery life (while running MobileMark 2014).
(yes supposedly the intel version ( i7-8565U) of the laptop with same battery, lasted like 17hours)

Still any laptop that can run 14,5hours straigth in a benchmark, has decent enough battery life no?

Last edited by JRPGfan - on 08 January 2020