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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Rumor:PS5 & Anaconda Scarlet GPU on par with RTX 2080, Xbox exclusives focus on Cross gen, Developer complain about Lockhart.UPDATE: Windows Central said Xbox Anaconda target 12 teraflop

 

What do you think

I am excited for next gen 22 61.11%
 
I cannot wait to play next gen consoles 4 11.11%
 
I need to find another th... 2 5.56%
 
I worried about next gen 8 22.22%
 
Total:36
mjk45 on 06 December 2019
DonFerrari said:
KBG29 said:

A Lockhart version would not be a last gen version. Lockhart if real, would be using the same CPU and GPU architecture as all Scarlett gen consoles. Microsoft will be supplying development tools that ensure that there is no effort required to get a game developed for the Scarlett family to run on all Scarlett devices. A one person team will not have an issues making a game for the entire Scarlett platform.  

Supporting 3 different Scarlett devices is not going to be a major effort. Supporting 20 different Scarlett devices wouldn't be a major effort. 

This is not the 90's or 00's anymore. Hardware and Development Tools have changed in the last two decades. Every aspect of the pipeline is being optimized for scalability. These console platforms, are even more optimized for scalability, because they have been built with it in mind, and they run a very specific set of Hardware and Software. 

Sony hinted that Pro was a "Test Case"", and the thinking behind it was "a platform lifecycle, we should be able to change the hardware itself and try to incorporate advancements in technology".

PS4 Pro was a proof of concept, and from what Sony is hinting at, they liked what they saw. To me it sounds like they are ready to go all the way with this thinking with PS5, and we will be seeing yearly PS5 updates, and possibly have PS5 Base and Premium level models as well. 

With the way AMD has laid out Zen and RDNA, and Sony talking about changing hardware during the life cycle, to incorperate advanced technology. It would not be in the least bit surprising to see them bring out new hardware with Zen3 and RDNA2, and again with Zen4 and RDNA3, and so on and so forth, with PS6 arriving when AMD and its parteners nail down full generational transitions to the successors of Zen and RDNA.

The industry is changing. As time progresses everything changes. It is not something to be scared of. There will always be fear mongering with anything new. Don't get caught up in the hyperbole. 

Baselines will always exist and the lower the baseline you have to develop for (there is talks about MS wanting next gen games to keep running on base X1) the lower the quality you can achieve on the upper line because it still have to work on the base one.

Also don't pretend that you have almost no work to make the game work on all versions.

Even PS4Pro that is only twice as powerful than base PS4 the option of IQ or FPS is still additional effort compared to only develop the base game.

Years of PC development with its myriad different configurations, means modern game engines are designed with scalability at the forefront, so having multiple SKU is today not the hindrance it would have been in past generations, this means having just one version has lost the importance it once had.



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HollyGamer on 06 December 2019
mjk45 said:

Years of PC development with its myriad different configurations, means modern game engines are designed with scalability at the forefront, so having multiple SKU is today not the hindrance it would have been in past generations, this means having just one version has lost the importance it once had.

I hope it's true so we probably can play Red Dead Redemption 2 on PS one or Sega Saturn. 



setsunatenshi on 06 December 2019
HollyGamer said:
Barkley said:

Not a chance the PS5/Scarlet are equivalent to an RTX 2080. The RX 5700 XT is the best Navi card atm, it's not as good as an RTX 2080 and it costs $400.

Performance will be closer to the RTX 2060, a little below the RX 5700 (non XT).

Again , we still don't know, but next year all RX 5700 price will go down due to new GPU from AMD (RDNA 2)  and Nvidia RX 3000 series. And Many insider beside Jason also confirmed this, plus with all the PS5 APU Gonzalo benchmark that has similar score to RTX 2080. 

Sony and Microsoft already confirmed that PS5 and Scarlet will have dedicated ray tracing which is not available with RX 5700 XT. So PS5 and Scarlet Anaconda will have better GPU then RX 5700 XT or similar with it. 

please stop comparing a console APU to any dedicated GPU, especially not to the top end one from a different architecture / company. it's completely meaningless and only invites discredit to other valuable information that could actually generate a good discussion.

also benchmarks without mature enough drivers aren't good performance indicators, not to mention I haven't seen any actual game benchmarks done in the gonzalo apu. would be great if you could link those if they do exist



mjk45 on 06 December 2019
HollyGamer said:
mjk45 said:

Years of PC development with its myriad different configurations, means modern game engines are designed with scalability at the forefront, so having multiple SKU is today not the hindrance it would have been in past generations, this means having just one version has lost the importance it once had.

I hope it's true so we probably can play Red Dead Redemption 2 on PS one or Sega Saturn. 

I'm not sure what your point is with such a ludicrous statement, you know as well as I do what scalability of modern engines means. 



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HollyGamer on 06 December 2019
mjk45 said:
HollyGamer said:

I hope it's true so we probably can play Red Dead Redemption 2 on PS one or Sega Saturn. 

I'm not sure what your point is with such a ludicrous statement, you know as well as I do what scalability of modern engines means. 

 " Scalability " and " modern engines " is a vague words and terms and need more explanation. How far games can be scalable,and how far you can consider as modern?  



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HollyGamer on 06 December 2019
setsunatenshi said:
HollyGamer said:

Again , we still don't know, but next year all RX 5700 price will go down due to new GPU from AMD (RDNA 2)  and Nvidia RX 3000 series. And Many insider beside Jason also confirmed this, plus with all the PS5 APU Gonzalo benchmark that has similar score to RTX 2080. 

Sony and Microsoft already confirmed that PS5 and Scarlet will have dedicated ray tracing which is not available with RX 5700 XT. So PS5 and Scarlet Anaconda will have better GPU then RX 5700 XT or similar with it. 

please stop comparing a console APU to any dedicated GPU, especially not to the top end one from a different architecture / company. it's completely meaningless and only invites discredit to other valuable information that could actually generate a good discussion.

also benchmarks without mature enough drivers aren't good performance indicators, not to mention I haven't seen any actual game benchmarks done in the gonzalo apu. would be great if you could link those if they do exist

Why not, because both are using the same GPU design and and will targeted for the same multiplatform games. I am not saying we can compare orange to orange, but we can at least make some general assessment or easy close comparison in terms of real life result based on the data that have been gathered. 



mjk45 on 06 December 2019
HollyGamer said:
mjk45 said:

I'm not sure what your point is with such a ludicrous statement, you know as well as I do what scalability of modern engines means. 

 " Scalability " and " modern engines " is a vague words and terms and need more explanation. How far games can be scalable,and how far you can consider as modern?  

 the thread speaks for what we are talking about. so it should be self explanatory what the context for those terms are, I'm not going to argue semantics.

I have said my piece on the matter and have no more to add to this thread. 



Research shows Video games  help make you smarter, so why am I an idiot

HollyGamer on 06 December 2019
mjk45 said:
HollyGamer said:

 " Scalability " and " modern engines " is a vague words and terms and need more explanation. How far games can be scalable,and how far you can consider as modern?  

 the thread speaks for what we are talking about. so it should be self explanatory what the context for those terms are, I'm not going to argue semantics.

I have said my piece on the matter and have no more to add to this thread. 

The thread it self explanatory and easy to understand, but your statement is the one will make people confuse and make a lot of debate , especially if you won't elaborate. My first quote to your comment is just simple example of what might come to you. 



Pemalite on 06 December 2019
JEMC said:

Next gen consoles will have hardware capable of ray tracing, so their GPUs will likely be based on AMD's next gen architecture, not the actual. That's not to say that they'll be as powerful as a 2080, of course, there are a lot of reasons why that isn't realistic (cost and heat are the obvious ones), but we have to keep that in mind.

Todays AMD Radeon GPU's are capable of Ray Tracing.
They just don't have dedicated Ray Tracing cores to handle the task, that is likely the differentiator for next gen verses AMDs current hardware offerings.

Trumpstyle said:

Dude, you can't just move facts around. The Radeon 5500 is a mid-range card ($200), it's on 7nm and loses to radeon 580. How much $/perf you actually believe Nvidias 7nm cards will improve? I'm not expecting much.

The Radeon RX 590/580/480/5500 are all mid-range cards.
The 5500 should drop to lower price points than Polaris though in the long run due to the smaller chip size.

nVidia has a ton of room to move on 7nm, I wouldn't discount them yet.

HollyGamer said:

Probably you are correct.  The total optimization of the CPU and GPU tandem on APU plus better RAM, as well using low level API on consoles will have similar result with PC games running on RTX 2080 using Windows PC. So the GPU probably on the level between 2070 to 2080. 

What optimizations specifically?

PC gets optimizations too.
In short, the 8th gen consoles really aren't doing anything that I wouldn't expect from the PC equivalent hardware.
I.E. Xbox One X is around the same as a Radeon RX 580/590 in terms of image quality.

ManUtdFan said:
It's strongly rumored the so-called dedicated ray tracing doesn't take much performance hit on the GPU. If so good news.

But if not the case it would be annoying if much GPU horsepower went on ray tracing. It's Toy Story quality at best, looks too sterile to be photorealistic. Path tracing is a big step up. But requires huge performance. 4k/60 fps should be mandatory.

There will be a performance hit though. - Whenever there is a sharing of resources (I.E. Bandwidth, Caches etc'.) there is a hit to performance due to contention on the hardware, no two ways about it.
The goal is to make the corresponding hit to performance, justify the increase in fidelity.

mjk45 said:

Years of PC development with its myriad different configurations, means modern game engines are designed with scalability at the forefront, so having multiple SKU is today not the hindrance it would have been in past generations, this means having just one version has lost the importance it once had.

This.

HollyGamer said:

 " Scalability " and " modern engines " is a vague words and terms and need more explanation. How far games can be scalable,and how far you can consider as modern?  

Engines are significantly scalable.
Turn off Screen-space ambient occlusion, tessellation, scale back particle density and quality, reduce shadow map resolution, scale back texture filtering, mip levels and anti-aliasing, resolution and framerates and you can take a game that would run on the Xbox One X... And drop it onto the Switch which is 10x less performant, if not more.

Take Frostbite for instance, the same engine we are using today (Frostbite 3.0) looks absolutely stunning with Ray Tracing and all the bells and whistles on a high-end PC, but that same engine has the capability to scale down not only to the Xbox One without Ray Tracing, but also the Xbox 360, it will look like ass, but it can be done.

Engines like Unreal, Frostbite, Unity, CryEngine, idTech, NetImmerse/Gamebryo/Creation Engine have all proven their scalability, not just across multiple hardware generations, but having chunks of their rendering pipeline enhanced/rewritten to introduce new effects on current hardware too.





--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

HollyGamer on 06 December 2019
Pemalite said:

Todays AMD Radeon GPU's are capable of Ray Tracing.
They just don't have dedicated Ray Tracing cores to handle the task, that is likely the differentiator for next gen verses AMDs current hardware offerings.

Not as much as RT capable if it compared to GPU with  dedicated RT cores.  

Pemalite said:

What optimizations specifically?

PC gets optimizations too.
In short, the 8th gen consoles really aren't doing anything that I wouldn't expect from the PC equivalent hardware.
I.E. Xbox One X is around the same as a Radeon RX 580/590 in terms of image quality.

is there any equivalent of jaguar on PC? Consoles are build to run at  lower spec and lower clock speed to match mainstream setup on PC
 so it can have affordable price on the long run. Optimization is actually is a thing to maximize consoles system . Lower level API is exist even Vulcan  exist to imitate consoles level optimization.  You will not find a PC spec in 2013 to 2015  that can run games on par with 7850 but with tdp 200 watt and small form factor with less heat on 399 price point. 

Yes you can built similar spec or even better, but witch small form factor, less tdp, less heat, noise, lower price point. Is imposible 

Pemalite said:

Engines are significantly scalable.
Turn off Screen-space ambient occlusion, tessellation, scale back particle density and quality, reduce shadow map resolution, scale back texture filtering, mip levels and anti-aliasing, resolution and framerates and you can take a game that would run on the Xbox One X... And drop it onto the Switch which is 10x less performant, if not more.

Take Frostbite for instance, the same engine we are using today (Frostbite 3.0) looks absolutely stunning with Ray Tracing and all the bells and whistles on a high-end PC, but that same engine has the capability to scale down not only to the Xbox One without Ray Tracing, but also the Xbox 360, it will look like ass, but it can be done.

Engines like Unreal, Frostbite, Unity, CryEngine, idTech, NetImmerse/Gamebryo/Creation Engine have all proven their scalability, not just across multiple hardware generations, but having chunks of their rendering pipeline enhanced/rewritten to introduce new effects on current hardware too.

So why developer are not  making Battlefield One on Xbox 360 and PS3? Or using Frostbite on Switch for their latest Fifa games, instead they are using old engines from PS3/360 era.  

When we talking about game design is not just about graphic but physic, AI, load time, game design. 

Last edited by HollyGamer - on 06 December 2019