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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Rumor: Xbox Scarlet Devkit is late behind the schedule to surprise Sony

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What do you think

To surprise Sony 10 20.00%
 
It's late because Sony ar... 9 18.00%
 
It's just showed Microsof... 7 14.00%
 
They probably just rebuil... 5 10.00%
 
Who knows 19 38.00%
 
Total:50
HollyGamer said:
Pemalite said:

I did. If you actually bothered to read my post.

I'll give you a hand and link you directly to the post in question so there is no confusion.
http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9083902

You just mentioning PC , but you never agree the benefit of smaller form factor of PS4/Xbox One when it came out in 2013, none of PC has the same small factor , small tdp,  small thermal impact and on top of that lower price  while at the same time performing equal to HD 7850 with 8 GDDR5 when it was launch in 2013. 

And why that should be considered when no one really cares?

If you buy a desktop PC you expect to extract the most power of it not the smallest form factor, power consumption and thermal generation.

If you buy a handheld you want portability (good performance at a good battery life) and them sure form factor, power consumption and thermal generation is very very important.

Consoles just sit in the middle and really most people that buy console don't care about these. They would appreciate a good looking console, but heat and power consumption isn't important to them. They want the most balance on performance for the price.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Around the Network
DonFerrari said:
HollyGamer said:

You just mentioning PC , but you never agree the benefit of smaller form factor of PS4/Xbox One when it came out in 2013, none of PC has the same small factor , small tdp,  small thermal impact and on top of that lower price  while at the same time performing equal to HD 7850 with 8 GDDR5 when it was launch in 2013. 

And why that should be considered when no one really cares?

If you buy a desktop PC you expect to extract the most power of it not the smallest form factor, power consumption and thermal generation.

If you buy a handheld you want portability (good performance at a good battery life) and them sure form factor, power consumption and thermal generation is very very important.

Consoles just sit in the middle and really most people that buy console don't care about these. They would appreciate a good looking console, but heat and power consumption isn't important to them. They want the most balance on performance for the price.

I agree with that.

If a console buyer is really caring (and basing his/her choice) on how much power or heat the machine will generate, this person is part of minority.
Living room consoles are exactly that: a good middle ground

Of course console makers are trying to do their best to deliver the most powerful/green/etc machines out of their factories but at the end; buyers are really caring about having something nice, playing the good majority of games out there, plug and play and ready to go. 

Another factor are exclusives for a lot of people; While I'm using the Xbox as main console; I know that I bought the Play Station Four because of Horizon Dawn and I will buy the next one as soon as the next game is out :) I did not care a minute about the look, the power consumption, green stuff or even the specifications...

Last edited by Imaginedvl - on 16 December 2019

Imaginedvl said:
DonFerrari said:

And why that should be considered when no one really cares?

If you buy a desktop PC you expect to extract the most power of it not the smallest form factor, power consumption and thermal generation.

If you buy a handheld you want portability (good performance at a good battery life) and them sure form factor, power consumption and thermal generation is very very important.

Consoles just sit in the middle and really most people that buy console don't care about these. They would appreciate a good looking console, but heat and power consumption isn't important to them. They want the most balance on performance for the price.

I agree with that.

If a console buyer is really caring (and basing his/her choice) on how much power or heat the machine will generate, this person is part of minority.
Living room consoles are exactly that: a good middle ground

Of course console makers are trying to do their best to deliver the most powerful/green/etc machines out of their factories but at the end; buyers are really caring about having something nice, playing the good majority of games out there, plug and play and ready to go. 

Another factor are exclusives for a lot of people; While I'm using the Xbox as main console; I know that I bought the Play Station Four because of Horizon Dawn and I will buy the next one as soon as the next game is out :) I did not care a minute about the look, the power consumption, green stuff or even the specifications...

Yep, games, price and performance would probably be the most common order of priority for most of the general consumer of consoles.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
HollyGamer said:

You just mentioning PC , but you never agree the benefit of smaller form factor of PS4/Xbox One when it came out in 2013, none of PC has the same small factor , small tdp,  small thermal impact and on top of that lower price  while at the same time performing equal to HD 7850 with 8 GDDR5 when it was launch in 2013. 

And why that should be considered when no one really cares?

If you buy a desktop PC you expect to extract the most power of it not the smallest form factor, power consumption and thermal generation.

If you buy a handheld you want portability (good performance at a good battery life) and them sure form factor, power consumption and thermal generation is very very important.

Consoles just sit in the middle and really most people that buy console don't care about these. They would appreciate a good looking console, but heat and power consumption isn't important to them. They want the most balance on performance for the price.

Well, i am arguing with him about why consoles is still comparable to a PC and made for gaming purpose by eliminating other non gaming part with better cost efficiency on small factor and small tdp. 



HollyGamer said:
Pemalite said:

I did. If you actually bothered to read my post.

I'll give you a hand and link you directly to the post in question so there is no confusion.
http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9083902

You just mentioning PC , but you never agree the benefit of smaller form factor of PS4/Xbox One when it came out in 2013, none of PC has the same small factor , small tdp,  small thermal impact and on top of that lower price  while at the same time performing equal to HD 7850 with 8 GDDR5 when it was launch in 2013. 

Because the smaller form factor/TDP/thermals aren't an advantage for consoles, PC can beat consoles on those fronts if you opt for something that isn't a powerhouse desktop PC. (Again I have proven this with evidence.) - Please refer to this post if you have forgotten: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9083902

I.E. The Mobility Radeon 7970M is lower TDP -and- faster than the Playstation 4... And is found in smaller form factors and uses less power.

Conversely, the same can be said for consoles, they cannot match the performance of a high-end PC... Or the low-power, low-TDP of a PC. (Remember the PC can be portable, your Xbox/Playstation can not.) - That doesn't actually make the consoles intrinsically better or worst, just designed for a certain target audience.

Pretty sure Pricing/Cost wasn't in your original argument anyway, meaning you are shifting the goal posts, thus making your argument a logical fallacy anyway.

Basically in dot point form...

* PC can be cheaper than console. (I.E. NUC/Netbook/Low-end Laptops etc'.)
* PC can be more expensive than console. (I.E. High-End Desktop PC.)
* PC can be less performant than console. (I.E. Netbook.)
* PC can be more performant than console. (I.E. High-End Desktop.)
* PC can be more portable than console. (I.E. Handheld notebooks.)
* PC can be less portable than console. (I.E. High-end Desktop with 4x GPU's, watercooling etc'.)
* PC can be smaller than console. (I.E. NUC.)
* PC can be larger than console. (I.E. Desktop.)
* PC can use less power than console. (I.E. Battery powered NUC.)
* PC can use more power than console. (I.E. High-End desktop.)

And there are all variants in between that use a mix of those points.

So it's rather humourous that you still cling to the idea that consoles are smaller/lower tdp/less heat than the PC, when that simply isn't the case. Again I refer you to: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9083902

Have a nice day.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

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Pemalite said:
HollyGamer said:

You just mentioning PC , but you never agree the benefit of smaller form factor of PS4/Xbox One when it came out in 2013, none of PC has the same small factor , small tdp,  small thermal impact and on top of that lower price  while at the same time performing equal to HD 7850 with 8 GDDR5 when it was launch in 2013. 

Because the smaller form factor/TDP/thermals aren't an advantage for consoles, PC can beat consoles on those fronts if you opt for something that isn't a powerhouse desktop PC. (Again I have proven this with evidence.) - Please refer to this post if you have forgotten: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9083902

I.E. The Mobility Radeon 7970M is lower TDP -and- faster than the Playstation 4... And is found in smaller form factors and uses less power.

Conversely, the same can be said for consoles, they cannot match the performance of a high-end PC... Or the low-power, low-TDP of a PC. (Remember the PC can be portable, your Xbox/Playstation can not.) - That doesn't actually make the consoles intrinsically better or worst, just designed for a certain target audience.

Pretty sure Pricing/Cost wasn't in your original argument anyway, meaning you are shifting the goal posts, thus making your argument a logical fallacy anyway.

Basically in dot point form...

* PC can be cheaper than console. (I.E. NUC/Netbook/Low-end Laptops etc'.)
* PC can be more expensive than console. (I.E. High-End Desktop PC.)
* PC can be less performant than console. (I.E. Netbook.)
* PC can be more performant than console. (I.E. High-End Desktop.)
* PC can be more portable than console. (I.E. Handheld notebooks.)
* PC can be less portable than console. (I.E. High-end Desktop with 4x GPU's, watercooling etc'.)
* PC can be smaller than console. (I.E. NUC.)
* PC can be larger than console. (I.E. Desktop.)
* PC can use less power than console. (I.E. Battery powered NUC.)
* PC can use more power than console. (I.E. High-End desktop.)

And there are all variants in between that use a mix of those points.

So it's rather humourous that you still cling to the idea that consoles are smaller/lower tdp/less heat than the PC, when that simply isn't the case. Again I refer you to: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9083902

Have a nice day.

HD 7970 Mobile tdp you mentioned not even counted with CPU factor that include with it (PS4 is an APU,  so the tdp are a combination of GPU+CPU) , also please give me the source for this claim. And also factoring the price i don't even see an equal to PS4 apu when it came out in 2013 .  

Prizes and cost is part of the equation the same with spec and it's part of the PC spec comparison. You blatantly accusing people moving goal post is just another reason you cannot admit it. I am done with this childish behaviour. Hasta la vista mate :) 



HollyGamer said:

HD 7970 Mobile tdp you mentioned not even counted with CPU factor that include with it (PS4 is an APU,  so the tdp are a combination of GPU+CPU) , also please give me the source for this claim. And also factoring the price i don't even see an equal to PS4 apu when it came out in 2013 .  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_graphics_processing_units#Radeon_HD_7000M_series

75W TDP. - That's thermal dissipation not power consumption though.

In notebooks you are looking at a total TDP of 135W once you include all other components.

But total power consumption was around 80w~ including all other components including the display.
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gx60-gaming-laptop-radeon-hd-7970m,3478-13.html

Not bad, not only does it use less power than the Playstation 4, it also offered substantially better CPU performance, better GPU performance and had more Ram, faster storage (SSD).

https://www.polygon.com/2016/9/8/12841606/ps4-pro-vs-ps4-slim-comparison-which-ps4-do-i-buy-guide

You don't need an APU to beat the chip in the PS4.

Did I mention it's also portable?



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
HollyGamer said:

HD 7970 Mobile tdp you mentioned not even counted with CPU factor that include with it (PS4 is an APU,  so the tdp are a combination of GPU+CPU) , also please give me the source for this claim. And also factoring the price i don't even see an equal to PS4 apu when it came out in 2013 .  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_graphics_processing_units#Radeon_HD_7000M_series

75W TDP. - That's thermal dissipation not power consumption though.

In notebooks you are looking at a total TDP of 135W once you include all other components.

But total power consumption was around 80w~ including all other components including the display.
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gx60-gaming-laptop-radeon-hd-7970m,3478-13.html

Not bad, not only does it use less power than the Playstation 4, it also offered substantially better CPU performance, better GPU performance and had more Ram, faster storage (SSD).

https://www.polygon.com/2016/9/8/12841606/ps4-pro-vs-ps4-slim-comparison-which-ps4-do-i-buy-guide

You don't need an APU to beat the chip in the PS4.

Did I mention it's also portable?

The reason why it need to be APU is for cost and latency, also many physicist job that should be done on CPU in PS3/Xbox 360 are now done on GPU with HSA and other methods , So yes cost is a factor in building consoles.  



HollyGamer said:

The reason why it need to be APU is for cost and latency, also many physicist job that should be done on CPU in PS3/Xbox 360 are now done on GPU with HSA and other methods , So yes cost is a factor in building consoles.  

Are you suggesting that because the Playstation 4 has an APU it's latency is somehow going to make it a better gaming platform for gaming than a Radeon RX 5700 XT and a SEPARATE Ryzen processor?

Also, cost is only up to a point. You need to understand foundry economics... But the basics is thus...

It is cheaper to consolidate multiple chips into a single chip... Up to a point, then you start to impact on yields, which directly impacts on cost.

Which is why AMD has taken the opposite route with Ryzen and started building lots of smaller chips, linking them up with infinity fabric as they are able to get around the yield issue, scale up in core counts and reduce costs.

Here is a little bit of educational light reading on chip sizes and yields and their relationship to cost.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/15219/early-tsmc-5nm-test-chip-yields-80-hvm-coming-in-h1-2020

I also don't think you understand what HSA is all about either... Some more light reading:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/10387/hsa-11-specification-launched-multi-vendor-support



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

HollyGamer said:
DonFerrari said:

And why that should be considered when no one really cares?

If you buy a desktop PC you expect to extract the most power of it not the smallest form factor, power consumption and thermal generation.

If you buy a handheld you want portability (good performance at a good battery life) and them sure form factor, power consumption and thermal generation is very very important.

Consoles just sit in the middle and really most people that buy console don't care about these. They would appreciate a good looking console, but heat and power consumption isn't important to them. They want the most balance on performance for the price.

Well, i am arguing with him about why consoles is still comparable to a PC and made for gaming purpose by eliminating other non gaming part with better cost efficiency on small factor and small tdp. 

Pemalite said:
HollyGamer said:

You just mentioning PC , but you never agree the benefit of smaller form factor of PS4/Xbox One when it came out in 2013, none of PC has the same small factor , small tdp,  small thermal impact and on top of that lower price  while at the same time performing equal to HD 7850 with 8 GDDR5 when it was launch in 2013. 

Because the smaller form factor/TDP/thermals aren't an advantage for consoles, PC can beat consoles on those fronts if you opt for something that isn't a powerhouse desktop PC. (Again I have proven this with evidence.) - Please refer to this post if you have forgotten: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9083902

I.E. The Mobility Radeon 7970M is lower TDP -and- faster than the Playstation 4... And is found in smaller form factors and uses less power.

Conversely, the same can be said for consoles, they cannot match the performance of a high-end PC... Or the low-power, low-TDP of a PC. (Remember the PC can be portable, your Xbox/Playstation can not.) - That doesn't actually make the consoles intrinsically better or worst, just designed for a certain target audience.

Pretty sure Pricing/Cost wasn't in your original argument anyway, meaning you are shifting the goal posts, thus making your argument a logical fallacy anyway.

Basically in dot point form...

* PC can be cheaper than console. (I.E. NUC/Netbook/Low-end Laptops etc'.)
* PC can be more expensive than console. (I.E. High-End Desktop PC.)
* PC can be less performant than console. (I.E. Netbook.)
* PC can be more performant than console. (I.E. High-End Desktop.)
* PC can be more portable than console. (I.E. Handheld notebooks.)
* PC can be less portable than console. (I.E. High-end Desktop with 4x GPU's, watercooling etc'.)
* PC can be smaller than console. (I.E. NUC.)
* PC can be larger than console. (I.E. Desktop.)
* PC can use less power than console. (I.E. Battery powered NUC.)
* PC can use more power than console. (I.E. High-End desktop.)

And there are all variants in between that use a mix of those points.

So it's rather humourous that you still cling to the idea that consoles are smaller/lower tdp/less heat than the PC, when that simply isn't the case. Again I refer you to: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9083902

Have a nice day.

I'll just point 2 things.

Yes it is quite obvious that PC is more flexible since you can go the full spectrum of parts to do what is best suited for your need =p . But you can't deny that when you go for the specific metric of easy, power/price point, etc consoles have an edge, mainly because the console manufacturers sell at a loss what they bought in bulk with a big discount you won't see. Also for most people the specs a base PS4/X1 have and still able to play AAA games 7 years after release on a very competent result is harder on PC.

Second one, you know that PS4 is portable as well, I'm certain you have seem some ludicrous mod that people made to play PS4 on the go. Like this https://www.gamestop.com/electronics/tvs-monitors/monitors/products/gaems-sentinel-personal-gaming-unit/178462.html?utm_source=sdi&utm_medium=feeds&utm_campaign=LIA&utm_kxconfid=t9vz73bvj&gclid=EAIaIQobChMInq207si85gIVx0XVCh0sJgMvEAQYBCABEgIwJPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."