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The cuts for the Sw/Sh dex were worse than even the most pessimistic predictions

Forums - Nintendo Discussion - The cuts for the Sw/Sh dex were worse than even the most pessimistic predictions

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Runa216 said:
Baddman said:

pokemon topic being ruined by the same vocal complainers about gamefreak. Most likely people with zero development knowledge or experience.

Coming into every pokemon or gamefreak topic and calling them lazy (how is this not considered trolling)

That's not what I'm doing! I'm one of those crazy people who has been saying for years that the national dex wasn't gonna last forever, and by the time it happens I could see them cutting out 75% of the total dex. I then went on to say that the dex could be added as DLC or an update later thanks to modern game dev cycles, but at the same time I know that'd just piss people off. 

Keeping all 900+ Pokemon in one game is ideal, sure, but it's not realistic. People who are complaining are getting angry that we don't live in a fantasy world. 

Don't get me wrong, if they did find a way to do it, I'd be fine with that. I'm not upset about this, though. I don't think anyone should be, and that those who are happen to be whiny, entitled brats. The Pokemon games have always been remarkably generous with us since 1999 (I think) when Gold/Silver came out, thus setting a precedent that had been followed. with Gold/Silver, we got an entirely massive postgame quest recreating much of Gen 1 plus the ability to import and play with over 250 Pokemon. this continued with gens 3 and 4, with 5 basically starting from scratch with 150 brand new 'mons (Which are to this day some of my favourite designs, Chandelure being one of them). They didn't HAVE to allow you to port forward other pokemon from the prior gen, but they did, and it was awesome. and Black/White 2 were equally awesome. 

Gens VI and VII were both lovely blends, and they didn't HAVE to let you bring forward every pokemon from prior gens, but they did. They never had to, but they did. Now, people think that it will always be like that despite the number of 'mons being over 800 now. It was impressive when we had 150 and even more impressive when that ballooned to more than 250. It's continued to be impressive until we got to where we are now, but anyone who expected the devs to continue giving us all the mons forever are being foolish and unreasonable. programming 'mons takes time and resources, and with them starting from scratch with new models and worlds, it's a pipe dream to think we'd get 900+ pokemon in this game. Assets take time and cost money, neither of which are infinite. 

I'm going in circles now, but holy hell some people think that they deserve the world. 

Tell ya what, you pay Nintendo/Gamefreak $100+ for the game (it's worth it, each of the prior games were stuffed to the brim with content enough to keep you busy for $100 worth of time), then maybe it'd be worth it or reasonable. 

Still sucks that Garchomp isn't in the new list (he was one of my goto 'mons) but it is what it is. So yeah, some people are ruining it, but some of us are being reasonable. 

I am one of the people that is dissapointed by the removal of the full dex. But at the same time, you have a point. So many games these days ask you to pay a DLC price for just a 25th or 30th character. Poke'mon comes with hundreds of characters. How many did Octopath have? Eight! How many characters are in Fire Emblem games, or Xenoblade, or Persona? 

I agree that no full dex sucks, (and is lazy) but at the same time, I think we as a community have forgotten how crazy it is to have an RPG with hundreds and hundreds of playable/usable characters. 



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The sentence above is true. 

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Cerebralbore101 said:
Runa216 said:

That's not what I'm doing! I'm one of those crazy people who has been saying for years that the national dex wasn't gonna last forever, and by the time it happens I could see them cutting out 75% of the total dex. I then went on to say that the dex could be added as DLC or an update later thanks to modern game dev cycles, but at the same time I know that'd just piss people off. 

Keeping all 900+ Pokemon in one game is ideal, sure, but it's not realistic. People who are complaining are getting angry that we don't live in a fantasy world. 

Don't get me wrong, if they did find a way to do it, I'd be fine with that. I'm not upset about this, though. I don't think anyone should be, and that those who are happen to be whiny, entitled brats. The Pokemon games have always been remarkably generous with us since 1999 (I think) when Gold/Silver came out, thus setting a precedent that had been followed. with Gold/Silver, we got an entirely massive postgame quest recreating much of Gen 1 plus the ability to import and play with over 250 Pokemon. this continued with gens 3 and 4, with 5 basically starting from scratch with 150 brand new 'mons (Which are to this day some of my favourite designs, Chandelure being one of them). They didn't HAVE to allow you to port forward other pokemon from the prior gen, but they did, and it was awesome. and Black/White 2 were equally awesome. 

Gens VI and VII were both lovely blends, and they didn't HAVE to let you bring forward every pokemon from prior gens, but they did. They never had to, but they did. Now, people think that it will always be like that despite the number of 'mons being over 800 now. It was impressive when we had 150 and even more impressive when that ballooned to more than 250. It's continued to be impressive until we got to where we are now, but anyone who expected the devs to continue giving us all the mons forever are being foolish and unreasonable. programming 'mons takes time and resources, and with them starting from scratch with new models and worlds, it's a pipe dream to think we'd get 900+ pokemon in this game. Assets take time and cost money, neither of which are infinite. 

I'm going in circles now, but holy hell some people think that they deserve the world. 

Tell ya what, you pay Nintendo/Gamefreak $100+ for the game (it's worth it, each of the prior games were stuffed to the brim with content enough to keep you busy for $100 worth of time), then maybe it'd be worth it or reasonable. 

Still sucks that Garchomp isn't in the new list (he was one of my goto 'mons) but it is what it is. So yeah, some people are ruining it, but some of us are being reasonable. 

I am one of the people that is dissapointed by the removal of the full dex. But at the same time, you have a point. So many games these days ask you to pay a DLC price for just a 25th or 30th character. Poke'mon comes with hundreds of characters. How many did Octopath have? Eight! How many characters are in Fire Emblem games, or Xenoblade, or Persona? 

I agree that no full dex sucks, (and is lazy) but at the same time, I think we as a community have forgotten how crazy it is to have an RPG with hundreds and hundreds of playable/usable characters. 

And yet... it's perfectly feasible. The work is already done. The models are there. The animations are there. The sound effects are there. The stats and movesets are there. And, it was all there in previous games, games which were sold for $40. You're paying more for less, there's no way around it.



mZuzek said:
Cerebralbore101 said:

I am one of the people that is dissapointed by the removal of the full dex. But at the same time, you have a point. So many games these days ask you to pay a DLC price for just a 25th or 30th character. Poke'mon comes with hundreds of characters. How many did Octopath have? Eight! How many characters are in Fire Emblem games, or Xenoblade, or Persona? 

I agree that no full dex sucks, (and is lazy) but at the same time, I think we as a community have forgotten how crazy it is to have an RPG with hundreds and hundreds of playable/usable characters. 

And yet... it's perfectly feasible. The work is already done. The models are there. The animations are there. The sound effects are there. The stats and movesets are there. And, it was all there in previous games, games which were sold for $40. You're paying more for less, there's no way around it.

True. They obviously need to do better in a ton of ways. They need better animations, a full dex, better textures, and better models. They need to bring back all the stuff they introduced and then scrapped in the previous games. They need a better postgame. But IMO they are ahead of the characters to price curve these days regardless of their lazy ways. Poke'mon started off being such a fantastic value when it first launched, that even now the game is a pretty good value. Even after they got lazy and made major cuts to everything. I guess that's just a testament to how ground breaking the series was when it first launched. Sure, Atlus' SMT series had tons of recruitable characters too. But that game series was very niche, and didn't fully come out of Japan until PS2. 



The sentence below is false. 
The sentence above is true. 

Not sure if this has already been posted but it seems that the employee morale at Gamefreak is at an all time low

https://nintendosoup.com/waypoint-employee-morale-at-game-freak-is-at-an-all-time-low/



Cerebralbore101 said:
Runa216 said:

That's not what I'm doing! I'm one of those crazy people who has been saying for years that the national dex wasn't gonna last forever, and by the time it happens I could see them cutting out 75% of the total dex. I then went on to say that the dex could be added as DLC or an update later thanks to modern game dev cycles, but at the same time I know that'd just piss people off. 

Keeping all 900+ Pokemon in one game is ideal, sure, but it's not realistic. People who are complaining are getting angry that we don't live in a fantasy world. 

Don't get me wrong, if they did find a way to do it, I'd be fine with that. I'm not upset about this, though. I don't think anyone should be, and that those who are happen to be whiny, entitled brats. The Pokemon games have always been remarkably generous with us since 1999 (I think) when Gold/Silver came out, thus setting a precedent that had been followed. with Gold/Silver, we got an entirely massive postgame quest recreating much of Gen 1 plus the ability to import and play with over 250 Pokemon. this continued with gens 3 and 4, with 5 basically starting from scratch with 150 brand new 'mons (Which are to this day some of my favourite designs, Chandelure being one of them). They didn't HAVE to allow you to port forward other pokemon from the prior gen, but they did, and it was awesome. and Black/White 2 were equally awesome. 

Gens VI and VII were both lovely blends, and they didn't HAVE to let you bring forward every pokemon from prior gens, but they did. They never had to, but they did. Now, people think that it will always be like that despite the number of 'mons being over 800 now. It was impressive when we had 150 and even more impressive when that ballooned to more than 250. It's continued to be impressive until we got to where we are now, but anyone who expected the devs to continue giving us all the mons forever are being foolish and unreasonable. programming 'mons takes time and resources, and with them starting from scratch with new models and worlds, it's a pipe dream to think we'd get 900+ pokemon in this game. Assets take time and cost money, neither of which are infinite. 

I'm going in circles now, but holy hell some people think that they deserve the world. 

Tell ya what, you pay Nintendo/Gamefreak $100+ for the game (it's worth it, each of the prior games were stuffed to the brim with content enough to keep you busy for $100 worth of time), then maybe it'd be worth it or reasonable. 

Still sucks that Garchomp isn't in the new list (he was one of my goto 'mons) but it is what it is. So yeah, some people are ruining it, but some of us are being reasonable. 

I am one of the people that is dissapointed by the removal of the full dex. But at the same time, you have a point. So many games these days ask you to pay a DLC price for just a 25th or 30th character. Poke'mon comes with hundreds of characters. How many did Octopath have? Eight! How many characters are in Fire Emblem games, or Xenoblade, or Persona? 

I agree that no full dex sucks, (and is lazy) but at the same time, I think we as a community have forgotten how crazy it is to have an RPG with hundreds and hundreds of playable/usable characters. 

Oh, I'm also disappointed! I mean, I am losing my dear Garchomp! There are many Pokemon I love that didn't make the cut, but yeah...it just seems silly to keep expecting the world. 

Personally, I kinda like that it's a new, regional dex and no national dex. It allows me to upfront start from scratch. I legit earned every Pokemon (Sans like 4) from the first 802, and each new gen it's really nothing. Starting over on Switch is going to be amazing! Having a brand new game, semi-open world, new gameplay, more emphasis on competitive and co-op, etc? I love this. I really, really do. the ONLY thing that bugs me is that I can't import my team Day 1. It sucks that the team I've been breeding for IVs and training for EVs and upgrading their PP on all moves....I can't use them until Pokemon Home is Implemented, which means that, for all intents and purposes, I can't even paly the game till next year. 



I got it all, baby! 

PS4, Switch, WiiU, XBO, PC
Vita, 3DS, Android

Top 3 this generation: 
Bloodborne, The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, Dark Souls III

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Runa216 said:

Personally, I kinda like that it's a new, regional dex and no national dex. It allows me to upfront start from scratch.

This argument I simply don't understand.

Whatever happened to the regional dexes of Johto, Hoenn, Sinnoh, Unova, Kalos and Alola.



mZuzek said:
Cerebralbore101 said:

I am one of the people that is dissapointed by the removal of the full dex. But at the same time, you have a point. So many games these days ask you to pay a DLC price for just a 25th or 30th character. Poke'mon comes with hundreds of characters. How many did Octopath have? Eight! How many characters are in Fire Emblem games, or Xenoblade, or Persona? 

I agree that no full dex sucks, (and is lazy) but at the same time, I think we as a community have forgotten how crazy it is to have an RPG with hundreds and hundreds of playable/usable characters. 

And yet... it's perfectly feasible. The work is already done. The models are there. The animations are there. The sound effects are there. The stats and movesets are there. And, it was all there in previous games, games which were sold for $40. You're paying more for less, there's no way around it.

IT's also perfectly viable that, if you go to a restaurant, they just give you some extra fries or a bigger steak. IT's also completely viable to go to WalMart and buy a copy of Lord of the Rings...no reason you can't also walk out with The Hobbit without paying for it. 

Just becuase something's there, it doesn't mean you're entitled to it. Development costs time and money, and while they could fit it all or expand it or whatever, they chose not to in order to redirect their efforts elsewhere. There are a half dozen or so reasons I can think of off the top of my head why they chose to do it this way: 

1 - Maybe development was taking longer than they thought and had a deadline to meet and had to cut SOMETHING?

2 - Maybe they wanted to streamline the game and cut much of the redundant flack? 

3 - Maybe they couldn't fit it all on the card? 

4 - Maybe they knew they couldn't keep this up forever and consciously chose to make this the cutoff point?

5 - Maybe they felt they were giving away too much and just didn't want to put in the extra effort?

6 - Maybe they wanted to focus more on the new Mons and release the National Dex as DLC? (would suck, but would make sense from a business perspective.)

7 - Maybe they just didn't want to and are sick of it? 

8 - Maybe they ... 

You get the point. any combination of those reasons would make perfect sense to me. Again, kinda sucks that they chose to do this, but we don't know for sure what the reason is, we can only speculate. you can SAY 'the models are already made', but game content gets cut all the time. you can SAY 'they could add it and chose not to', but we don't know that and can't know for sure. You can assume all you want, but there could be reasons behind this that we don't know that explain it perfectly. why does it have to be malice or laziness? why do you chose to assume the worst? 

Personally, I do think it sucks that the national dex has been omitted and they won't be returning to it. The reality is that we got 20 years of the same dex being slowly built up over 7 generations of Pokemon spread across 4 game generations encompassing 802 different playable characters and just so, so, SO much content overall. The idea that a series can simply add to the franchise without taking away for so long is nice, but it was never going to be permanent. it was never going to last like that forever. The fact that you think it was and are acting like you are entitled to that generosity shows your complete and utter lack of understanding of game design, economics, and sustainability. 



I got it all, baby! 

PS4, Switch, WiiU, XBO, PC
Vita, 3DS, Android

Top 3 this generation: 
Bloodborne, The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, Dark Souls III

mZuzek said:
Runa216 said:

Personally, I kinda like that it's a new, regional dex and no national dex. It allows me to upfront start from scratch.

This argument I simply don't understand.

Whatever happened to the regional dexes of Johto, Hoenn, Sinnoh, Unova, Kalos and Alola.

What's there to not understand? Instead of simply adding to an existing, slowly-building dex, I can start all over in a new region. It means that, for the first time in a decade, I truly feel like I'm exploring a whole new world again! I can't just skip 90% of the pokemon because I already have them. This time I DON'T already have all the returning pokemon because the game doesn't have them all. To me, getting Charmander might actually be important, and I'll have to do all that stuff again with the breeding and evolving in a new place! 

I'm excited and this feels like Gen 1 again, in an odd way. If you chose not to look at it from that perspective, I understand that, but I love this. 



I got it all, baby! 

PS4, Switch, WiiU, XBO, PC
Vita, 3DS, Android

Top 3 this generation: 
Bloodborne, The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, Dark Souls III

Runa216 said:
mZuzek said:

And yet... it's perfectly feasible. The work is already done. The models are there. The animations are there. The sound effects are there. The stats and movesets are there. And, it was all there in previous games, games which were sold for $40. You're paying more for less, there's no way around it.

IT's also perfectly viable that, if you go to a restaurant, they just give you some extra fries or a bigger steak. IT's also completely viable to go to WalMart and buy a copy of Lord of the Rings...no reason you can't also walk out with The Hobbit without paying for it. 

Just becuase something's there, it doesn't mean you're entitled to it. Development costs time and money, and while they could fit it all or expand it or whatever, they chose not to in order to redirect their efforts elsewhere. There are a half dozen or so reasons I can think of off the top of my head why they chose to do it this way: 

1 - Maybe development was taking longer than they thought and had a deadline to meet and had to cut SOMETHING?

2 - Maybe they wanted to streamline the game and cut much of the redundant flack? 

3 - Maybe they couldn't fit it all on the card? 

4 - Maybe they knew they couldn't keep this up forever and consciously chose to make this the cutoff point?

5 - Maybe they felt they were giving away too much and just didn't want to put in the extra effort?

6 - Maybe they wanted to focus more on the new Mons and release the National Dex as DLC? (would suck, but would make sense from a business perspective.)

7 - Maybe they just didn't want to and are sick of it? 

8 - Maybe they ... 

You get the point. any combination of those reasons would make perfect sense to me. Again, kinda sucks that they chose to do this, but we don't know for sure what the reason is, we can only speculate. you can SAY 'the models are already made', but game content gets cut all the time. you can SAY 'they could add it and chose not to', but we don't know that and can't know for sure. You can assume all you want, but there could be reasons behind this that we don't know that explain it perfectly. why does it have to be malice or laziness? why do you chose to assume the worst? 

Personally, I do think it sucks that the national dex has been omitted and they won't be returning to it. The reality is that we got 20 years of the same dex being slowly built up over 7 generations of Pokemon spread across 4 game generations encompassing 802 different playable characters and just so, so, SO much content overall. The idea that a series can simply add to the franchise without taking away for so long is nice, but it was never going to be permanent. it was never going to last like that forever. The fact that you think it was and are acting like you are entitled to that generosity shows your complete and utter lack of understanding of game design, economics, and sustainability. 

Bold is the one that's true.

And no, I'm not "entitled" to having a full national Pokédex in every Pokémon game. No one's entitled to anything here, after all this is a $60 product each person can freely choose to spend or not spend their money on. I think this product looks incredibly underwhelming and hardly worth half its price tag, therefore I'm not buying it. I'm not entitled to getting the game with the full dex, but I am entitled to choose not to buy it, and that choice is down to the fact it's lacking the full dex - among other things.



The newest information seems to indicate that the GTS has been cut from Sw/Sh too, and is likely going to be locked behind Pokemon Home when it eventually comes (effectively locked behind two subs, Home and NSO)... That's going to make getting version exclusives ridiculously hard at first (you'll be completely at somebody else's whims through Wonder Trade or have to have a friend with them to trade to you). That's some absolute shit. I'm used to GF doing the one step forward two steps back thing, but this is like two shuffles forward, five leaps back.